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BMW R75 Tactical markings

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    #16
    Hi,

    Good to have matching numbers, your R75 was manufactured in the 3rd Week of Aprril 1943, 647 BMW R75 were manufactured in April 1943 running from 760495 to 761142. The planning was to build 670, but this was not achieved.

    cheers lennard
    Last edited by lennard999; 08-14-2020, 07:37 AM.

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      #17
      Hi 29THPZG.

      Forgot to say that the same groupage of tactical and divisional signage can be applied without the black background, often the background is left "natural", that is, its left as what ever colour the vehicle is painted, but of coutse later in the war that is nearly always dark yellow (dunkelgelb).

      Also note that all motorcycle signage is half the size of other vehicles.

      cheers lennard

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        #18
        (Dear Moderators.... I have specific questions on tactical markings used on my father's motorcycle when he was in the Wehrmacht for both the Russian and Yugoslavian campaigns of WWII. If this is the wrong place for this question, I apologize and please re-insert in the proper discussion group. Thank you.)
        ------------------------

        I recently joined this group and was wondering if anyone here can be of some help as to the meaning of certain motorcycle markings ("Tactical markings"?) used on Wehrmacht sidecars during WWII. It is basically a triangle....like an inclined-plane (wedge), formed as a flat-bottomed triangle with 2 circles (like wheels) on the bottom edge. On top of the symbol is the letter "K". These are found on actual wartime pictures of my father' motorcycle in Russia and Yugoslavia at the time. A picture is attached. Related questions about my father's possible troop movements, regiment numbers, etc, as well as other data.... can be found on this separate discussion thread---->
        https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...r-alfred-ferch

        A link is included that embeds 3 pictures that can be enlarged on a computer screen. Thanks.


        Attached Files

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          #19
          Hi,
          Cannot add much, other than the tactical sign (the triangle) is for a Panzer Jager (anti-tank) unit, motorised, whilst the "K" is for the 1st Panzer Army under von Kleist, hence the "K".There is also some other sign above the "K" but cannot tell what it is.

          1st Panzer Army (PzAOK 1) was in Poland and the West in 1939 and 1940, but in 1941 fought in the Balkans as 1st Panzer Group (PzGp 1), 1941-45 on the Eastern Front as 1st Panzer Army. All the early years and into the early part of Russia, was under von Kleist.

          Cannot find any reference to a Jager Rgt 20.

          cheers Paul

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            #20
            Paul ("Lennard999")...that was VERY useful information. Many thanks. I will add this "jigsaw" puzzle piece of information, to the many other pieces I've collected to see if I can go further. I will also contact Bundesarchiv.

            As to Regt 20 or Bataillon 590 references.....I am plowing through this site, which I offer here as thanks in case it may be of help to you or others--> < http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de >

            By the way.....can an enlargement of the photos I provide....give any hint as to the motorcycle used by my father? From the front-view that we only have, and a close look of the fin-orientation of the exposed flat-twin cylinder head....can it be a BMW R71 ?
            Last edited by IPSC; 09-05-2020, 12:08 PM.

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              #21
              Hi IPSC,
              Good, glad its useful, I have wondered about the bike myself, from the front could be an R12, R61 or R71, if you had a side view it would be easy, as the R12 has a pressed frame and a fuel tank set into the frame, whereas the R61/71 have a tubular frame with a more traditional "rounded" fuel tank.

              cheers PAUL

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                #22
                1939_bmw_r12_15624385608764daIMG_4501-e1564604633784.jpg The photos I posted originally of my father's bike, were the only 3 I have of the motorcycle.......sorry. That all said....look closely at a super-enlargement of all those pics. Compare those to this photo that I am posting now, here, that I found of an R12 from the internet ( posted here, within text, large size). For my 3 photos originally posted, you see "vestiges" (hints) of the rounded-bottom-edge of a sheet-metal style frame beginning to peek out behind the front forks (indicating R12).... and then this.....look at the tubular front forks. One section telescopes into another (as expected, meaning, the lower-portion diameter is smaller than the upper-most portion)...AND...there is ANOTHER step-down in diameter real close to the bottom, near the point for the front wheel stub-axle...;.so there is a double-reduction of diameters going fully top-to-bottom . I think only R12 has this....no?
                Last edited by IPSC; 09-12-2020, 09:44 AM.

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                  #23
                  Hi ISPC,
                  Yes most likely an R12, certainly not the front forks for an R71, see attached photo, very different.

                  cheers PAUL.
                  DSCN5150.JPG

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                    #24
                    R12
                    But they left never the plant original in yellow paint. If yellow the original grey paint was getting overpainted, same when in camo pattern.
                    -----
                    search: BMW R12 parts
                    search: everything from Fliegerhorst Illesheim
                    search: everything from Kavallerie Reg. 17 Bamberg

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Hi Robert H,
                      Whilst what you say is correct for the vast majority of R12's, it is possible to have a factory painted (Dunkelgelb) bike. All vehicles from panzers down to bikes had refurbishment programmes, where seriously worn out or damaged machines were returned to the original factory or a designated sub-factory, and totally rebuilt.

                      In which case they were considered new vehicles and issued as such, of course their colour would be the same as any other vehicle in production at the same time, so in the yellow painted period, Feb 1943 to May 1945, any rebuilt vehicle would be yellow. Consequently there would have been "new" R12's being issued up until the end of the war. It certainly happened with many other vehicle types with "new" examples being issued long after main production had stopped..

                      In the case of the R12, it was probably BMW Eisenach for rebuilds as they were the main spares storage depot for R12 parts, even though all originally new, grey painted R12, were built at BMW Munich.

                      cheers PAUL

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                        #26
                        Paul ("Lennard999") ....thank you again for your previous responses and engagement with my questions. Allow me to ask a follow up question on the specific details of the case I had spoken-about.

                        The question is: Would the "K" symbol be used.....as you suggested.... for as LARGE of an operational entity as an "ARMY" or "GROUP ( ie, von Kleist's 1st Panzer Army or 1st Panzer Group)....meaning,.... wouldn't the tactical markings be more frequently used for smaller operational entities, instead? Any guidance here would be appreciated.... thanks in advance. Great forum here.....

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                          #27
                          On that R12 the K is on the reverse of the sidecar, otherwise it all can differ.
                          Markins front on sidecar and reverse, plus markings on the bike, or only on sidecar or only on the bike back or front or on the front side.
                          Based on original photos it always can be the sidecar once has changed or the bike, or no markings.
                          There are many many original photos to find online or even from books, to study those was for me very important.
                          Attached Files
                          -----
                          search: BMW R12 parts
                          search: everything from Fliegerhorst Illesheim
                          search: everything from Kavallerie Reg. 17 Bamberg

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Hi ISPC,
                            The K for Kleist, like the G for Guderian and the H for Hoth, all panzer groups and sometimes bigger than that, were universally applied on hundreds if not thousands of vehicles, they simply denote the overall group that the vehicle was in.

                            Its not a tactical sign in the sense of identifying the function of the unit the vehicle was in, it like the Palm Tree sign for the Afrika Korps. they liked it !!!

                            Tactical and divsional signs were still used in addition, like the 14th Panzer Div sign alongside the K on Robert H's photo above.

                            See attached photo of a Kfz 17 Funkwagen, that is covered in signs, the K of course, the two white crosses are for the 18th Infantry Div and the tactical sign for the Stab Kompanie of a motorised infantry unit (battalion or regiment).

                            And just to illustrate the point again, a photo showing the G of the Guderian Panzer Group on a Kfz 17 of the 207 Infantry Division (crossed stylized horses) .

                            So your Fathers's bike carried the overall military group "K" and a tactical sign for an anti-tank unit, and maybe a unit/divisional sign, which might be the smaller, unreadable, badge directly above the "K", a great pity.

                            Cheers PAUL

                            Kfz 17 blokes.jpg Kfz 17 KENNUNG G - (Pz.Gr. 2-GUDERIAN).jpeg
                            Last edited by lennard999; 09-13-2020, 06:18 PM.

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                              #29
                              Fantastic information all ! ..... a big thank you ! As I continue my research, I also found this Youtube video on Guderian's unit as part of Barbarosa.....with a multitude of letter "G" shown on many vehicles....simply to reinforce the answers given here. Perhaps it may be of interest to some of you to see this. Thanks again---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjnG5JE69eA

                              .

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