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General der Flieger collar tab for authentication

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    #16
    Materials varied ~ it was a world war.

    Not exactly sure what #2 is asking

    One guy/girl with one single stamp didn't run around stamping every finished product.

    Buckram/backing material varied ~ it wasn't that important as it was never seen ~ I've seen cardboard used.

    I don't see sawtooth cuts ~ show?

    Excess piping was affixed in a bunch of ways ~ like buckram, it wasn't going to be seen.

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    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares wind up plowing for those who did not."

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      #17
      Rick,

      Thank you for the inputs, to better explain question two:


      The manner in which the thread on the front of the tab is sewn in (specifically on the wreaths), seems to have minute differences even in the legitimate examples. Just wondering if this is due to the sewing styles of different individuals, I am guessing the answer is yes, but I am ignorant as to the manner in which these Generals tabs were accomplished.

      Other replies

      Understood on the stamp. It appears that it differed based on the individual and the stamp. My question here was in reference to RamJet's comment on the style of the number "2". Not sure exactly what the reference was to, but I assumed that it was the number itself.

      Didn't have a better description, but in your picture of the subject piece, the top line of cloth appears jagged. I used "sawtooth, but perhaps this is the wrong description.

      In any event I greatly appreciate the insight and having your correct tabs to compare it to, now just trying to fully understand the differences and their origins. Thank you again for the posts!!
      Last edited by Bowietx; 08-08-2019, 03:32 PM. Reason: Structure of Post

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        #18
        “minute differences” ~ “sewing styles” ~ or what?
        Hard to really say but I would speculate that differences are very simply artisan related. Of course you can get differences in the end product simply by using different ‘gauge’ wire and embroidering with metal wire will behave differently (for the same embroiderer) than, say celleon thread. Also, I believe, that there was a standard ‘wreath’ unterlagen used (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...96810#poststop) and gull were added/placed as need for the rank being done. Thus the placement of the gulls varied according to the eyeballing of the creation by the artisan.

        Not a clue what Ramjet was referring to. We need to hear him clarify his impression/opinion, perhaps with some empirical evidence to be concerned or unconcerned. My opinion is there’s no red flag in the pieces stamped “22” that I saw.

        “jagged” ~ Cloth fraying. No worries I can see.
        sigpic
        "Those who beat their swords into plowshares wind up plowing for those who did not."

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          #19
          Ok, I am tracking and thank you for the answers and insight. Each of the insights has helped me to understand the construction of this tab and what may be of concern. The unterlagen would be of great interest to me.

          As far as the subject tab is concerned, I will go with the fact that it is potentially bad, but only insofar as it can be quantified as what was referred to as a "gut check". Something which I won't dismiss as intuition is not always able to be quantified.

          However, in pursuit of a more concrete answer. Ramjet stated that the tab appeared to be an "original messed up". This was attributable to the number "22" which appears to have been dispelled and as others have cited the "tresse" or "piping". One individual cited that it is in the twist of the tresse. There does appear to be a minor difference in the presentation of the tresse/piping, so perhaps this line of questioning is worthy of pursuit. Does anyone have an image of original "correct" tresse or perhaps an image of a fake side by side?

          Thank you in advance!!

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            #20
            In fact the grainy tresse looks like the post war one ; on the other hand the embroidery is nice. I don't say they are fake, it is a simple thought. I don't have enough knowledge for the generals items as it is a mine field imo...

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              #21
              Will,

              Your reference to buckram ~ being a bit slow I’m not sure what you’re saying or asking. Presumably you’re questioning the lighter shade or different ‘weave’ of buckram as being a possible red flag? Shades of buckram ~ see here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...26397#poststop
              and here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...16940#poststop and for an example of cardboard stock used vs standard buckram here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...79247#poststop Short take ~ many materials were used, color and/or hue varied, weave of buckram went from rough to finer.

              Your reference to “piping” (not tresse) ~ I ‘believe’ what Renaud is referring to is the tinsely style of piping. Most folks are uncomfortable with it. That said, what folks ‘like’ and what was ‘done’ can be two distinctly different things. I’m not quite sure the present piping is actually that kind but if it were there have certainly been examples of it used on period tabs.

              One: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...on#post1277727
              A.H. Thomassen: “These tabs has provenience directly from the widow of an Norwegian volunteer in the Norwegian Legion.

              Two: Another tinsely example: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...14025#poststop
              Ian Hulley relates: “What IS obvious (in MY opinion) is that this is an original blank right-sided tab,with early piping in a condition which is somewhat inconsistant to the rest of the tab. The RZM label is original and correct for a piped blank tab,reflecting the jobs of cutting,folding and glueing the tab material around the buckram and then also attaching the piping. It dates (as Gary says) from Spring '38 to ~'40,i.e. the paper labels started in Spring '38,the serial number's around that date (?) and the silver/black/silver piping was discontinued in 1940.

              Folks don’t ‘like’ the piping but then… I don’t particularly like Schlitz, but on a hot day in August if you handed me one…
              Attached Files
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              "Those who beat their swords into plowshares wind up plowing for those who did not."

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                #22
                I searched a little bit and made my mind up, I would tend to "nice original" now.

                The problem with the "22" was obviously in my memory, the marking is okay compared with other 22 stampings.

                The piping was unusual for me at first, but I found out this kind was frequently used on Luftwaffe General tabs.

                Some examples from my collection shown below.
                Attached Files

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                  #23
                  Ramjet,

                  Thank you for sharing, those are great photographs and really allow for a detailed examination of the tabs at hand!!

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                    #24
                    Ramjet the 2nd tabs you show are so called ‘double chevron’ tabs which are regarded as reproduction. The first set are very nice originals though
                    Best regards, Patrick

                    "Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Patrick W View Post
                      Ramjet the 2nd tabs you show are so called ‘double chevron’ tabs which are regarded as reproduction. The first set are very nice originals though
                      No, the double chevrons look quite different. Look at the thread "Double chevron tabs debate" and check my posts there.

                      http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...double+chevron

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Patrick W View Post
                        Ramjet the 2nd tabs you show are so called ‘double chevron’ tabs
                        I disagree, too. These are not double chevrons...

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                          #27

                          Nothing like a thread with 203 replies to clarify and remove any ambiguity in the "double chevron" matter, eh?

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                          "Those who beat their swords into plowshares wind up plowing for those who did not."

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