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Double Chevron Tabs Debate

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    #61
    By the way, after the cheap pairs shown above here comes the most expensive pair I found on the internet on a dealer's site. A lot of dealers offer one or another pair of "double chevrons", I suppose without knowing that these are at least quite doubtful pieces. IMO they are repros from the 70s.

    To defend the dealer where I found this pair: I bought from him very good HG Leutnant tabs and he has a lot more good tabs on his site. This pair obviously slipped in between.



    Generalmajor, 1495 US-Dollars:


    Last edited by RamJet; 05-02-2014, 07:32 AM.

    Comment


      #62
      VERY good examples of the double chevron tabs. I am also onboard with the theory that they are post-war. I have never seen a pair on an untouched uniform before.

      Comment


        #63
        I dont like any of those that are shown in the latest posts... Is there a way to post images of the reverse? Do they have the same buckram/assembly characteristics?


        I have seen some tabs that have that feature that I feel are orginal. Desite having the double chevron, the eagles were applied differently. I do not agree that all double chevrons are repros, but a combination of those gulls and the chevrons I will stay clear.
        Looking for documents/items pertaining to Warsaw 1944 Uprising

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by PaulR View Post
          but a combination of those gulls and the chevrons I will stay clear.
          Exactly.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by PaulR View Post
            I have seen some tabs that have that feature that I feel are orginal. Desite having the double chevron, the eagles were applied differently. I do not agree that all double chevrons are repros, but a combination of those gulls and the chevrons I will stay clear.
            You are right, Paul, I wasn't quite exact in my statement about the 70s repros. For me, the so-called "double chevrons" are the kind of tabs shown in posts #59 and #61 which also have the very distinctive form of the gulls in common.

            I don't want to judge the Flak Oberleutnant in post #60 just from this pic alone, I must have it in hands. For me it is the first pair of tabs that perhaps has a chance to be genuine in spite of the double chevrons, as they differ in their construction from the typical "double chevrons".

            Sorry, no pics from the backside!

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by RamJet View Post
              By the way, after the cheap pairs shown above here comes the most expensive pair I found on the internet on a dealer's site. A lot of dealers offer one or another pair of "double chevrons", I suppose without knowing that these are at least quite doubtful pieces. IMO they are repros from the 70s.

              To defend the dealer where I found this pair: I bought from him very good HG Leutnant tabs and he has a lot more good tabs on his site. This pair obviously slipped in between.



              Generalmajor, 1495 US-Dollars:



              As the picture has disappeared, here again for the records:


              Comment


                #67
                Have a look to these two double chevron tabs for Generalmajor and Generalleutnant on a french website :
                http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/604004074.htm?ca=1_s
                http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/604007160.htm

                Also seen on Butschek's website : https://www.weitze.fr/detail/24/Luft...r__195324.html
                Last edited by Favos; 06-12-2014, 12:27 PM.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Favos View Post
                  Have a look to these two double chevron tabs for Generalmajor and Generalleutnant on a french website :
                  http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/604004074.htm?ca=1_s
                  http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/604007160.htm

                  Also seen on Butschek's website : https://www.weitze.fr/detail/24/Luft...r__195324.html
                  The tab in the link to Weitze's site is not a double chevron tab and is a fine original one. I guess a more understandable/precise name for the double chevron tabs would be Corporal Chevron tabs since most undisputed tabs do exhibit some sort of double "V" at the bottom of the wreath.

                  Gary B
                  ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Favos View Post
                    Have a look to these two double chevron tabs for Generalmajor and Generalleutnant on a french website :
                    http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/604004074.htm?ca=1_s
                    http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/604007160.htm

                    Also seen on Butschek's website : https://www.weitze.fr/detail/24/Luft...r__195324.html

                    The one on Weitze's site (not Butschek) is no double chevron tab. Nice original example.

                    At least the Generalmajor on the French website also don't fit in this category even it looks close. I am not sure about the Generalleutnant, pics are too small.



                    Edit: Oh, I just see, Gary was a few minutes before me!

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Oh right, sorry for that (and for the mistake with Butschek instead of Weitze).

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by RamJet View Post
                        At least the Generalmajor on the French website also don't fit in this category even it looks close. I am not sure about the Generalleutnant, pics are too small.

                        Just looked closer at the tabs of the French Website, on the large computer screen and not on the iPhone.

                        Both are IMO 70s repros, too, but of another type than the "corporal chevron" tabs.

                        Here is a pic of a pair of HG Leutnant tabs of the same type:
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by RamJet; 06-12-2014, 04:20 PM.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Ebay offer of a set of Reserve Flak LtCol double chevron tabs plus boards, they sell as repros for 67,50 Euro.

                          A bargain for all those who believe they are genuine ...

                          http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schulterstuck...sAAOSwLVZVybER

                          Comment


                            #73
                            I was pointed to this thread which I read with interest. The ‘narrative’ that I come away with by reading the comments is that one is being led to infer that tabs featuring wreath stems that angle down steeply are fakes.

                            Conditions/observations are made here that lead the casual reader to conclude that a class of fakes are being foisted on us in spite of the fact that: “no one could come to a consensus as to whether these were good or bad.” The observations are:
                            1. “Below the wreath are 2 inverted V’s/chevrons (like Corporal chevrons).”
                            2. “The embroidery of gulls is rather distinct with most of the wing embroidery being almost vertical. The gulls “wingspan” is quite wide and on full wreath tabs the wings touch the inner portions of the wreath. The beak of the gull is affected by a small loop of wire. ”
                            3. “The extra piping, which is typically longer than what is seen on other tabs, is tied off in a large “U” shape.”
                            Add to these criteria Paul’s “Shiney brown backing” which, for me is the very definition of a ‘subjective’ description.

                            With respect to Paul (in my mind, anyway) I’m going to dismiss his criteria in that almost all buckram coated in Mucilage is ”shiny brown” to one degree or another and is the standard of period German rank tab manufacture.

                            I would stop here in my summation however, to point of that ‘stems’ at the base of the wreath are NOT part of the unterlagen manufactures used to embroider rank tabs. Features not present on the utilized unterlagen were done freehand; they were an element of ‘style’ of the craftsman or their apprentices being taught the trade. I reflect on the manufacture of visor caps that while the ‘norm’ may have been to stitch the cut edge of the liners into most capbands, that some craftsmen/companies folded over the liners before stitching them in. Again, a matter of ‘style. I’ve been told that certain features on SS General’s tabs were also not present on the unterlagen but were done freehand resulting in elements of style that sometimes cause certain consternation. Stems on the aforementioned tabs (straight cut or pointy) have been debated as a feature of concern in evaluating period manufacture even though Bill McClure bought his pointy stem variants directly from SS General Demelhuber reflecting this nuance. Pips and acorns were also elements of style versus template on such General’s tabs.

                            If the double (Corporal) chevrons are a bad sign then what of those tabs featuring a single chevron (Private) like the General’s tabs below featuring very long stems with steep angles? What of tabs with no stems at all featured at the base of their wreaths? Are these design features or elements of style which, again, are not part of the unterlagen template, yet another criteria for casting doubt of a set of tabs, another nuance indicating something¬†afoul¬†going on? And what of that ‘U’ shaped tacking down of piping? Creating doubt by the way a craftsman or crafts’men’ were taught to tie down excess piping seems a bit ridiculous (to me) when Gary (in this thread http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...9&highlight=22) feature the exact same methodology on his Judicial tabs which no one had a problem with.

                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Rick C; 02-06-2016, 08:46 AM.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Call me silly but I believe that because a set of tabs, having certain elements of style were found on a fake tunic and thus to infer that other tabs having these design features must be suspect is a dangerous precedent. You could make the same leap of faith viewing a Janke visor cap rebadged with period M1/52 Deschler TK and infer TKs with the M1/52 mark are somehow suspect. Thus, you get remarks such as Adams (no offense intended Adam) “Thanks to this thread I was able to identify one fake collar tab on an otherwise perfect Fliegerblouse

                              It seems to me that this is how urban legends begin in this hobby. The sixties or seventies seem to be the time frame accepted by most as when these originated. But then, Mike commented: "I sure don't remember any great fakes of insignia in the 60's....most of the fakes at that time were laughable and not meant to fool anyone. Considering you could buy the real pieces for a couple of dollars, where was the incentive? I still have some of my nice, original pieces that I paid anywhere from $1 to $5 for (including an SS TK tab I got for five bucks). I might ask the experts here, since there’s not one mention once of the presence of ‘unterlagen’ in this thread, how many fakes being made in the sixties or seventies were utilizing unterlagen and/or materials that were non-reactive to UV?

                              So, again, I’ll quote Gary “Are there some original Double chevron tabs that were copied to the “T” by a company? Are all of these double chevron tabs fake? Are they good but have been “damned” because of some known reproductions in this exact design style? ” I believe that listing esoteric criteria like vertical embroidery of the gulls (seen on a boatload of tabs), stems being angled a certain way or ‘U’ shaped tacking of piping (again seen elsewhere) or even “Shiney brown backing” and alluding that somehow these features equate to red flags without clarifying if your subject “fakes” are using period materials or the presence (or lack thereof) of unterlagen in their construction is nothing more than creating a dangerous narrative that may result in folks taking the ‘individual’ design features you list to condem yet more tabs.

                              I mean, the nitwits at DHS claim that being a believer in the Constitution, being a Christian, being a veteran, a Ron Paul supporter and/or homeschooling your kids are “signs” of a “domestic terrorist”. If this thread’s narrative is to be believed then, I suppose, so is the DHS list of ‘tells’.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Rick C View Post

                                3. “The extra piping, which is typically longer than what is seen on other tabs, is tied off in a large “U” shape.”
                                Add to these criteria Paul’s “Shiney brown backing” which, for me is the very definition of a ‘subjective’ description.

                                With respect to Paul (in my mind, anyway) I’m going to dismiss his criteria in that almost all buckram coated in Mucilage is ”shiny brown” to one degree or another and is the standard of period German rank tab manufacture.

                                Wow... this is an old one. Anyway, those reproductions I saw on Ebay being sold as such had all of the characteristics I listed in common.

                                I dont think that I said that originals could not have those traits, regardless this topic is closing on seven years old and we have "grown" a lot since then.

                                I love the buckram on the General's tabs but an confused by the brown backing.

                                BTW- way to politicize a LW tab conversation. As a member of a branch of military service that is under the DHS, I am rather offended by your statement. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and totally distracts from it. Kinda immature, really.

                                Yours,
                                DHS OIF veteran
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by PaulR; 02-06-2016, 09:17 AM.
                                Looking for documents/items pertaining to Warsaw 1944 Uprising

                                Comment

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