Lakeside Trader - 2nd Banner

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Heer Officer's Panzer Beret Insignia

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Heer Officer's Panzer Beret Insignia

    This offer on the estand caught my attention and "popskipa" (Keith) and I have been discussing on a back-channel.

    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1023911

    Up front, I tend to think it is more likely original than it is post-war. Thus, a buyer could potentially add a rare item to an insignia collection.

    I have not seen evidence of such insigniain photographs to prove it, but I also cannot disprove it off-handed. The earliest beret oakleaves were the Reichsheer pattern and were embroidered directly into the cloth beret covers with thick white thread. There can be little doubt that some officers wore berets with such insignia.

    Did "officer" styles exist? and were they bullion aluminum wire embroidered directly into the beret cover, or were they separate pieces embroidered with billion aluminum wire?

    Angolia and Schlicht Vol 1, page 186 makes reference to an officer embroidered versions in the "first pattern" (meaning - to me - the Reichsheer pattern).

    I recently bough an early, embroidered Reichsheer pattern oakleaves and cockade, believing I was buying the type for the Schirmm├╝tze/peaked cap...and the price was appropriate for such a piece of insignia (under 50 EUR).

    Turns out, it was executed on black badge cloth, not dark green. One might say it matches the description given by Angolia and Schlicht. If not post war, I believe I have exactly what the book referenced.

    Have pictured it here - certainly for popskipa - but also in hopes of others weighing in with opinions - or better yet, photographic evidence.
    Attached Files
    CSP


    sigpic

    #2
    I also have "somewhere" a black base WH OFF embroidered Oakleaves .
    Was it really for the Pz beret ? Sounds logical .
    The very early berets had the oakleaves embroidered directly on the wool , no longer after 1935 with the introduction of the new badges as i remember .
    Nick

    Comment


      #3
      An image of my oakleaf roundel, now on eStand, so the image is retained for future reference...

      Keith
      Attached Files
      I collect WWII special forces units. Especially those deployed in North Africa, Aegean & Mediterranean theatre. Also the WWI campaign in the Hejaz, Imperial Camel Corps, TE Lawrence & associates

      Comment


        #4
        if not for the beret, why black badge cloth? Am just asking...as I do not know another use.

        The belief at this point is that both are original.

        If original, somewhere, someone must have a photograph that would be proof.
        CSP


        sigpic

        Comment


          #5
          Hello Scott,


          I agree with your theory.


          Fred
          LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

          Comment


            #6
            i got this one several years back
            Attached Files

            Comment


              #7
              Here's one in place on a beret, for sale at The Marshal's Baton:
              Attached Files

              Comment


                #8
                Thank you for the feedback Fred, Lloyd's and darekm.

                The 2nd Patten oakleaves and cockade each look the same...on or off the beret. Nothing I see convinces me that are not period original manufacture. Wish a photo of an officer wearing the insignia would surface.

                However, that beret cover all by itself does not immediately scream " original ".
                CSP


                sigpic

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by CSP View Post
                  ... However, that beret cover all by itself does not immediately scream " original ".
                  Ditto that Sir.

                  B. N. Singer

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I agree with CSP and Mr. Singer. My doubts about the cover is the cloth, which, so it seems, lacks the hallmark spiral weave. So, I'll throw this out for discussion. I don't mind being shot down, but do it with explanation. This, if an original piece, is very early. I'm suggesting that, maybe, before the berets came out with the machine woven insignia applied to the cover, that perhaps the early covers didn't always this weave.

                    Second, with respect to the insignia, it appears that the insignia was not so uniform, having different variations. See photo below. So, if that's the case, why not also the cloth of the cover of these early covers. To note the obvious once again, I've referring to the covers of the early '30s.
                    Attached Files
                    ~ The true test of a democracy is how well it protects the rights of its least popular citizens. ~

                    ~ Never cross swords with an unworthy opponent. ~

                    Comment


                      #11
                      As nice an image as is that Pz-Aufkl. Steve...the insignia appears to be the normal white cotton thread, embroidered directly onto the cover (with normal added metal roundel).

                      Hoping someone can show an officer wearing the beret with a separately made oakleaves of the hand-embroidered bullion wire type.
                      CSP


                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I have just started a thread on this possible Welhausen Recon visor;

                        http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1026285

                        What is interesting is the bullion cockade, it looks to be the Panzer beret type being sought in this thread

                        Notice the Panzer black wool background above the cockade that the bullion is hand embroidered into.

                        Makes me speculate if a Recon officer took the wreath from or intended for his beret and had it sewn on his visor ? I can not find any holes from a metal wreath ever having been applied,

                        Chris
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by 90th Light; 12-10-2019, 04:06 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Chris:

                          I'd say it is the second pattern on the Schirmm├╝tze.

                          If these black-based oakleaves were in fact made for officer Panzer berets, there would not have been much use for them after berets were withdrawn...so...why not make use of left over insignia?
                          CSP


                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The image of a colorized soldier from A 7 in post 10 shows an early beret with the white wool style wreath sewn onto the cover that was also used on the early "NCO" style crusher. I have seen several photos which show the same type wreath. I seriously doubt there was any embroidery directly on the beret cover.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by pauke View Post
                              The image of a colorized soldier from A 7 in post 10 shows an early beret with the white wool style wreath sewn onto the cover that was also used on the early "NCO" style crusher. I have seen several photos which show the same type wreath. I seriously doubt there was any embroidery directly on the beret cover.
                              a variation of wool badge
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                              Users Viewing this Thread

                              Collapse

                              There is currently 1 user online. 0 members and 1 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 4,375 at 11:03 PM on 01-16-2020.

                              Working...
                              X