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tropical straps, opinions

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  • OSS
    replied
    It is disturbing to hear knowledgeable people disagree. Maybe we have reached the point where fakes are indistinguishable from the real thing. It should be noted however that this is the result fakers have been hoping to achieve.

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  • Hptm. Fuhrmann
    replied
    I, too, am amazed at how easily those straps are just disregarded as fakes. I'm all for being cautious and suspicious in regards to high priced items such as tropical shoulder straps, but this here is what germans usually call "Jammern auf hohem Niveau". If those straps are fake then I suggest everyone should just retire from collecting, stick to what they have and look no further, because then there is a person out there so well informed, equipped and dedicated that nothing is truly safe to correctly assess anymore.

    Here are my 2 Pfennig:
    The construction, shapes and craftmanship on those straps is just what I would expect from a genuine pair.
    The buttonholes are perfectly fine, the fact that they, as well as most of the brown wool and the sewing thread are a match, despite the otherwise mismatched appearance they have, at least shows that they ran through the same machine and therefore come from the same source.
    The fieldgrey wool on the tongue shows a weave I usually call 'late-war', seen from 1942 on and replacing the plain weave that earlier wool fabrics had, therefore I deduct that this must be the earliest point in time when those straps were made. The fact that they are so mismatched adds to this assumption, the later it got, the less they cared about what scraps they threw together, as long as the outward appearance looks uniform.
    The wool on the backing seems to have a slight color difference as well, the one on the strap with the fielgrey tongue looks a little darker, the same goes for the rayon piping tape. This was nothing unusual back then, given that even if your material always comes from the same manufacturer, different batches rarely matched the color shades of previous ones perfectly. Getting your hands on some original piping tape in that branch color today is already a pretty tough feat, let alone two different shades of it.

    So now I'm supposed to believe that someone went trough the trouble of gathering all those different original materials, assembled them flawlessly to period specs on period machines to sell them for a price that probably barely justified the trouble he went through and the expenses he had to make?
    And then the dreaded button indentation, a telltale sign of a fake, no doubt! What about the notion that those straps were attached to a uniform or kept in a showcase with buttons added for some time? That's a very weak point to found an opinion on.

    But as always, I am eager to hear more opinions and especially detailed facts and arguments as to why those straps are supposed to be fakes.

    Best regards,
    Andi

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  • NZMark
    replied
    Willi,
    Neither myself or Chris are new to tropical straps - we aren't just questioning to be obtuse or difficult in some way. I've handled fewer original tropical straps than Chris, maybe only a couple of hundred or so. I've also owned dozens of original sets and singles as well.
    Thanks for being so dismissive of experienced collectors trying to get to the bottom of why something is labelled 'good' or 'bad'.
    No wonder I post less often than I used to.
    Mark
    NZ

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  • Willi Z.
    replied
    Originally posted by OSS View Post
    Agree, close but not quite there (thankfully).
    But as we constantly see here, there is no need to make better fakes. There are plenty of customers for the fakes we now have....

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  • Willi Z.
    replied
    Oh, good grief.....

    It is so blatantly obvious these are fakes. The contrived button impression is now common on so many fakes. For starters....

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  • 90th Light
    replied
    Originally posted by NZMark View Post
    Thanks Pauke.
    I also collect tropical straps - and have handled many sets and singles. Thus my confusion...
    Irregularities abound in strap manufacture - as does material condition due to storage, wear et al.
    Mark
    NZ

    +1

    Other collectors with tropical boards who I emailed or spoke too could not see anything wrong with the pair which started this thread.

    Some asked what is there to be gained for a faker from putting a field-grey tongue on one board and the use of LW shirt material to line it ??? Far more likely a case of an original manufacturer making straps from off-cuts in later half of 1942 or early 1943.

    Top of the line fakes are not known for being made from a mismatch of materials. However to quote Tim again, if this is the work "from the same faker" known to USA collectors. Then surely someone can post images of his work or other such fake tropical straps with a similar hotchpotch of materials used to make them.

    Let's not also forget that irregularities of shape of original straps are often the result of unskilled labor being pressed into a job with little training, especially from 1942 on-wards. Plus the use of off-cuts varied according to the size of the garment cut out. Both these factors can impact on the shape/ size of straps made from such off-cuts,

    Chris
    Last edited by 90th Light; 06-16-2019, 09:36 PM.

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  • NZMark
    replied
    Thanks Pauke.
    I also collect tropical straps - and have handled many sets and singles. Thus my confusion...
    Irregularities abound in strap manufacture - as does material condition due to storage, wear et al.
    Mark
    NZ

    Leave a comment:


  • pauke
    replied
    I will offer a few details. Firstly, the irregular edges are a sign. They should be straight and the curved end broad, blunt and have a smooth curve which these do not exhibit. The maker likes to leave a nice button impression and fading without the straps showing any real use. This point can be debated to death. Yes, the materials and basic construction are original or very well done but I would not pay $25 for these and I collect straps. There are a couple of other points I won't mention but these straps also do not look seven years old, much less seventy plus. It would be good to have a pinned thread into which these fine reproductions could be lumped for reference. These are and will be dangerous for future collectors and such is the fate for valuable desirable collectables. In hand two pairs I have inspected offered more information as to why they are reproductions. Jedem das Seine!

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  • 90th Light
    replied
    Originally posted by NZMark View Post
    I've been looking at these straps since they first came up. I'm very surprised at the negative reaction to them. Can someone please point out the faults which define these as reproductions?
    I'd really like to know as I can't see them.
    Regards,
    Mark
    NZ
    Thanks Mark for bringing this to the top so they can be discussed further.

    I am also at a loss as to why these tropical greatcoat shoulder boards are being declared bad. I pulled my ones out and did a comparative analysis.

    Allowing for the limitations of computer images, here is what I came up with;

    1/ Button holes are 100% correct. Can match them exactly with known 101% originals

    2/ Olive brown wool is the correct lighter shade for a later tropical greatcoat (Earlier 1940/ 41 tropical greatcoats tend to be a darker shades of Olive Brown)

    3/ Tongue lining is the correct linen/ poplin that tropical shirts are made from. One strap is lined with WH shirt material and the other is lined with LW shirt material (Note this is definitely not the "Cotton Duck" material used on some fakes and often cited as a dead give-away of bad)

    4/ The lighter shade of powder Lime green Rayon piping is often seen on later tropical straps and absolutely correct when compared with some of my straps

    5/ The thread is correct pre-1945 thread and the number of stitches per centimeter matches other known originals made before May 1945.

    6/ One board having a field grey tongue is quite possible for 1942/ 43 production. Could even be a good sign of original

    So what am I missing ???


    Tim states "More fakes from the same faker/maker" May be he could kindly add some images of other fakes from this maker and we can make comparisons for all to see.


    At this stage for me, things line up nicely with known beyond doubt originals,

    Chris

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  • NZMark
    replied
    I've been looking at these straps since they first came up. I'm very surprised at the negative reaction to them. Can someone please point out the faults which define these as reproductions?
    I'd really like to know as I can't see them.
    Regards,
    Mark
    NZ

    Leave a comment:


  • Zip3120
    replied
    Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post
    More fakes from the same faker/maker.
    thanks you Tim

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  • Tim O'Keefe
    replied
    More fakes from the same faker/maker.

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  • Zip3120
    replied
    Originally posted by ARDITO View Post
    La coda di topo del farben, è di cotone. opaca, sulle spalline originali deve essere lucida
    in rayon, questa opaca a trama leggermente più grande la trovi ancora nelle mercerie,
    quella in Rayon non si trova più, gran bel lavoro, anche spaiate, ma non buone.
    Grazie ARDITO, sei stato molto gentile e competente come al solito.
    Marco

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  • Zip3120
    replied
    thank you for your usual and valid help
    Marco

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  • ARDITO
    replied
    La coda di topo del farben, è di cotone. opaca, sulle spalline originali deve essere lucida
    in rayon, questa opaca a trama leggermente più grande la trovi ancora nelle mercerie,
    quella in Rayon non si trova più, gran bel lavoro, anche spaiate, ma non buone.

    Leave a comment:

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