David Hiorth

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Panzer Officer eagle cap ?

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    #16
    Hello,

    The breast eagle that you posted 11C is an enlisted man's private purchase embroidered eagle of thread construction not cello. The cap eagle looks like a nice cello piece to me.

    Fred
    LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

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      #17
      Originally posted by Fred Green View Post
      Hello,

      The breast eagle that you posted 11C is an enlisted man's private purchase embroidered eagle of thread construction not cello. The cap eagle looks like a nice cello piece to me.


      Fred
      Sorry Fred. Did not mean to confuse the "bullion" issue. I posted the first eagle to show the backing material consistent with French made eagles. Here is another cellon example of the "officers" style.

      http://germanmilitariacollectibles.c...ified_ID=41349

      Comment


        #18
        Some collectors subscribe to the idea that since the Kriegsmarine was not using bullion much after 1940 then what are the "ugly" eagles they are finding on post '40 material. The opinion is that they must be French, but in fact, the France produced some very nice embroidery. Dealer's needed a "pigeon hole" to put in the "ugly" eagles they had not sold.... That being said, the first eagle posted is probably "French" under that mindset.

        Here are some examples suggested to be French by Heer Weitze:

        https://www.weitze.com/militaria/73/...e__218873.html

        https://www.weitze.com/militaria/94/...e__149494.html

        https://www.weitze.com/militaria/49/...e__138549.html

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          #19
          Hello 11C,

          Thanks for the clarification!

          I am no means an eagle expert, I'm just another slob on the bus with an interest in eagles.

          I have the Heer twin for the eagle you posted here : http://germanmilitariacollectibles.c...ified_ID=38408 ,except the backing material is different. The backing material is the same style of backing material found on Heer signal blitzes that have used the same color thread on the front and back. A lot of my European friends do not like these.
          Another individual posted me another heer eagle that is again a twin of the one posted on the above link with the same black backing material. Both my eagle and the other individuals eagles suffer from a weak base material where it becomes frayed after use.

          Below are the pictures of my Heer twin.

          Fred
          Attached Files
          LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Fred Green View Post
            Hello 11C,

            Thanks for the clarification!

            I am no means an eagle expert, I'm just another slob on the bus with an interest in eagles.

            I have the Heer twin for the eagle you posted here : http://germanmilitariacollectibles.c...ified_ID=38408 ,except the backing material is different. The backing material is the same style of backing material found on Heer signal blitzes that have used the same color thread on the front and back. A lot of my European friends do not like these.
            Another individual posted me another heer eagle that is again a twin of the one posted on the above link with the same black backing material. Both my eagle and the other individuals eagles suffer from a weak base material where it becomes frayed after use.

            Below are the pictures of my Heer twin.

            Fred
            Personally, I don't have a concern with those particular eagles. I think they are probably real, but they are less desirable from a collector's standpoint (especially if that collector were German ). I have even black-lighted the backing material before, and they pass that test easily. You could do a thread test for another marker conformation, but I'm sure they would pass that as well. Quality suffered as the war went on and these are very late war eagles IMO.

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              #21
              Here are pictures of the The backing on the signal blitz that is the same on my eagle. I have it in white and black. The black appears to match the eagle that you posted.

              I have no idea who manufactured this eagle but it has been attributed to the French. By the backing material only then these signal blitzes could be French made too. There is a wide variety of signal blitzes manufactured in this style, same color front and back, and having this white rayon type of backing.

              There is another thread where another collector attributes them to being French made: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=802394 top eagle.
              Attached Files
              LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

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                #22
                The second eagle that you posted: http://germanmilitariacollectibles.c...ified_ID=41349 looks more in design to an early private purchase German eagle to me. The skinny body, pointy beak and round wreath. This is what. I think it resembles these more than anything.
                Attached Files
                LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

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                  #23
                  A
                  Attached Files
                  LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

                  Comment


                    #24
                    B
                    Attached Files
                    LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Fred Green View Post
                      Here are pictures of the The backing on the signal blitz that is the same on my eagle. I have it in white and black. The black appears to match the eagle that you posted.

                      I have no idea who manufactured this eagle but it has been attributed to the French. By the backing material only then these signal blitzes could be French made too. There is a wide variety of signal blitzes manufactured in this style, same color front and back, and having this white rayon type of backing.

                      There is another thread where another collector attributes them to being French made: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=802394 top eagle.
                      I agree........These are late war, French made.

                      The bullion eagle that was FIRST posted in IMO is not French made, but rather a 60's reproduction that has found it's way into the community of "French-Made" designations. I think my first posted eagle suffered from a lighting issue, although I don't have it to actually see the difference. Generally, this type of backing picks up any color dyes that may be in the fabric it was attached to, so you do see a considerable amount of shading differences.
                      Last edited by 11C; 05-25-2015, 02:01 PM. Reason: spelling

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                        #26
                        Going back to the original eagle that started this thread, I am not familiar with this style of manufacturing. One type of thick bullion for the eagle proper, with the addition of the small beads on the top of the wing, Loose embroidery style, Only thread highlights and a very different backing material.

                        Tim Curley posted some very nice eagles but the one thing that stuck out was the multiple types of bullion and that they all had a bullion adornment on the bottom of the wreath.

                        I would like to see more of the original posted eagle and hear why it is attributed to being French manufacture and what are the characteristics of French manufacture.

                        Fred
                        LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Hello,

                          This discussion ended up going in a different direction and discussing backing materials. Let's get back on track.

                          What are the characteristics of the so called "French" manufactured bullion eagle? What are the typical "tells" that tell you it is attributed to being "French" made? Backings, Materials, Bullion size? I would like to know and learn.

                          Smitty sent me some shots of eagles that he has but I also want to hear from other collectors what gives them the "feel" that the eagle that they are looking at it "French" made.

                          Fred
                          LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Hello,

                            Again I ask, What are the characteristics of a Bullion French made eagle? What design traits give them this name? What identifies them as such?

                            From the initial eagle that started this thread, if I am to understand correctly, a French bullion eagle uses one type of thick strand bullion, has only thread for highlights, and has a paper backing. Is this correct? Is this what gives them away as French made?

                            As a collector I participate on this forum to learn. I have a great interest in eagles and would like to learn as much as possible about them. Thanks.

                            Fred
                            LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Hi Fred,
                              Here is a KM eagle I picked up a while back, and sold to me as French made. It does meet the single size bullion criteria, but seems to have both bullion and thread highlights. There is no sign of paper backing.

                              Regards
                              Kevin

                              SAM_0002.JPG

                              SAM_0005.JPG

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Hello,

                                Kevin , that is one ugly eagle!!! I couldn't tell you where it was made.

                                I am still asking about the characteristics. I really don't know what they are. The term "Typical French" is used as 11C put it to pigeon whole ugly eagles that they can't classify as anything else.

                                Norm gives us a good lead in the direction with his 2 bullion badges! If these are French made, which is a very good possibility, then French made eagles might have been made of the same type of materials with the same skill in manufacture shown here. I am not talking about all eagles , just some. When somebody says "Typical French" then they are talking about a majority of the French manufactured eagles. I want to know what the characteristics of the majority of these eagles are! I actually don't think there are any. I believe 11C to be right and it is now a catch phrase in the collecting community.

                                Fred
                                LEARN THE PATTERN OF THE ORIGINALS, THEN THE FAKES WILL BE APPARENT!

                                Comment

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