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Unissued Heer 3rd pattern Tropical service blouse - thoughts?

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    #46
    Thank-you Todd!

    OSS - agree, it never ends!

    Best regards, Paul
    Addicted to history and militaria!

    My collection/ albums:- https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...42-paulw/media (Click on "Media" !)

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      #47
      I believe it was at camp Lucky Strike that returning GI were able to bring a pith helmet home as a souvenir if they so desired..apparently they were port stored there or possibly moved to the port area from another storage spot..Billbert
      "They NEVER did that....YEAH they did ....."

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by PaulW View Post
        Having tunics as a main interest I usually add headgear and belts as accessories. However, in the case of tropical M40 caps I tend to lean the other way, the tunic becoming the accessory!

        Seen here with a Dressen F42 cap with a slightly tan hue (though not as obvious in these pictures), some more pictures here:-)
        Hi Paul

        That's a nice late war (Italy) tropical display. Were early caps with the soutache removed issued to solders with late war tunics ? Or were M40's without a soutache issued by then ? When were the soutache pulled caps replaced by the issued factory made non-soutache made caps in the field ? We know both were worn in Tunisia right to the end but what about afterwords ?

        Your Weissbach E41 M40 looks to be from the beehive cache, right out of a time machine

        Also would point out that not only the tunic has to match the M40 but the shoulderstraps are a must to match the M40. Not that easy to do sometimes...

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

          Hi Paul

          That's a nice late war (Italy) tropical display. Were early caps with the soutache removed issued to solders with late war tunics ? Or were M40's without a soutache issued by then ? When were the soutache pulled caps replaced by the issued factory made non-soutache made caps in the field ? We know both were worn in Tunisia right to the end but what about afterwords ?

          Your Weissbach E41 M40 looks to be from the beehive cache, right out of a time machine

          Also would point out that not only the tunic has to match the M40 but the shoulderstraps are a must to match the M40. Not that easy to do sometimes...

          Thanks Tim!

          I don't have the expertise to join the debate on when factory made non-soutache caps made it to the field (i.e passed through the supply line to the frontline troops), although I understand that for example (from Borg & Huart's Feldbluse book) M42 wool tunics are not seen at the front until Kursk in July 1943 in period pictures, i.e they may have sat in the supply line/ Depots etc for a while before actually being first issued.

          The Weissbach E41 I would say is lightly worn but if that's just collectors/ collectors children trying it on post-war (!) and it is from the Beehive cache then it illustrates the point that sometimes earlier items sat (forgotten?) in the supply line and could have been issued at any point afterwards? I could see a soutached cap leaving a factory, arriving in a Depot post the soutache removal regulation (July 1942) and having a soutache removed to 'comply' by supply troops all before reaching the front-line. I think it's plausible?

          I just made the point in another thread that as an Army Reservist in the 1980's I used a WW2 Bren gun on one occasion and saw crates of Wire-cutters being opened in Germany that had not been opened since 1945, they were perfectly serviceable and no-one batted an eyelid!

          Of course also, a soldier issued an earlier cap could have a worn out/ combat damaged/ lost feldbluse replaced with a new tunic at any point too?

          However, all that aside, yes a pair of tropical straps (matching) would be nice for the tunic, also a 1943 factory non-soutache cap too, there is literally no end....

          Best regards, Paul



          Edit - on another note, after viewing this thread a forum member has PM'd me 20 pictures of Heer and Luftwaffe portrait style (studio) pictures, all taken in Italy, wearing tropical clothing with continental shoulder straps - as an illustration of the practice. Where it can be seen, all are wearing leather belts. The Heer caps are all without soutache as would be expected for what are likely 1943 onwards. I can't reproduce them here, I think it would up to the member in question to do that as I don't know the source etc.

          If from a book I might guess at the 3 volume series:- Deutsche Truppen in Italien

          More information on these books here:-

          https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...ended?t=562404

          and here:-

          https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...outhern-europe
          Last edited by PaulW; 10-30-2020, 11:13 AM.
          Addicted to history and militaria!

          My collection/ albums:- https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...42-paulw/media (Click on "Media" !)

          Comment


            #50
            Permission given, thank-you Paolo.

            I will post the 7 Heer pictures for interest.

            Although difficult to discern some of the continental type wool shoulder-straps here, I suspect when the source pictures are viewed it is clearer to see.

            Also, of interest, some Unteroffizier without collar tress, and the Ostfront ribbons.
            Attached Files
            Addicted to history and militaria!

            My collection/ albums:- https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...42-paulw/media (Click on "Media" !)

            Comment


              #51
              Hey Paul

              Thanks for your thoughts

              I too can not address when the issued M40's with plucked soutache ran out in the supply chain. To be replaced by the so called M43 without a soutache from the factory. Perhaps other members that have studied this feel free to help out ? Vet bring backs from Italy would be a good place to start.

              Your Weissbach E41 could be from the beehive cache. However my understanding is most of the caps found did still have the soutache attached. So it's possible your cap was issued and worn as a soutache removed cap from the factory. More likely imo.
              The beehive cache is interesting in the different caps that were found. Some dated 1941 & 42 with soutache & some with an rbn# from '43 without a soutache. So goes to reason that that the train where the caps were first found must have been abandon in the spring of '43 ? Yet there were plenty of caps dated earlier with soutache still in the supply pipeline at that time...would guess that soutache removed caps were still issued well into the later war.

              cheers

              Tim

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by PaulW View Post
                Permission given, thank-you Paolo.

                I will post the 7 Heer pictures for interest.

                Although difficult to discern some of the continental type wool shoulder-straps here, I suspect when the source pictures are viewed it is clearer to see.

                Also, of interest, some Unteroffizier without collar tress, and the Ostfront ribbons.
                Thanks Paul & Paolo

                Easy to see the Continental straps & chevrons on the tropical tunics. Mostly 2nd pattern tunics interestingly. Four maybe five of them along with the 1st pattern and third pattern. Pretty clear the unteroffizer's didn't wear the tresse on the collar. Common in Afrika too during '42. Interesting contrast in the photos.

                Comment


                  #53
                  In my experience, it is rare to encounter a New Zealand veteran who brought back German tropical shoulder straps from Italy. Most of the tropical shoulder straps that have turned up in New Zealand were brought back from North Africa. More often than not, It would seem that German soldiers wore woolen continental shoulder straps on their tunics in Italy. Tropical shoulder straps may have worn more in Italy in 1943 in the warmer south than 1944 and 1945 in the north but this is only speculation on my part. In 1943, there were units and supplies destined/ returned from Afrika in Italy. By 1944 and 1945, there are units arriving from the Eastern front and two winters of fighting. Leather belts and leather boots were commonly worn with the tropical uniform in Italy and appear to be the norm. The tropical M40 caps without soutache (soutache removed ?) was worn with both the tropical tunic and woolen tunic along side the M42 and M43 caps in many German units,

                  Chris

                  p.s. here are a couple of pictures of German prisoners taken during the fighting for the Sangro River 16 December 1943 by the 2NZEF photographer George Kaye. I just love the mix of tropical and continental uniforms being worn in these images. Tropical shoulder straps being worn by one or more member of this lot ? Who could say for sure but you can clearly see that the tropical M40 without soutache is the main cap being worn along side an M42 and M43 that were to increasingly replace the trop M40 in 1944 and 1945. It would also be interesting to know if any of the greatcoats are the tropical model.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by 90th Light; 11-01-2020, 09:36 AM.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    And this is what the German prisoners that George Kaye photographed at the Senio River, Italy April 1945 were were wearing. Note the reversible camouflage jacket & trousers being worn in the last image (interestingly, the camo German helmets taken from this unit had been painted to match the jackets). The second last image shows a tropical M40 without soutache still being worn (there might be a tropical M40 in the first jittery image ?) but tropical shoulder straps by this stage of the fighting appear to be a very rare sight. Also the New Zealand soldier with the Tommy-gun in the last photo appears to be holding what could be a tropical M40 cap in his other hand.

                    Chris

                    p.s. love the caption that goes with the first photo, captured by the camera has real meaning for that one
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by 90th Light; 11-01-2020, 08:32 AM.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Hi Chris

                      Thanks for the info and added photos
                      The contrast between captors and captured is quite apparent.

                      Now that Italy has been covered very well the question only remains for the Balkan and Ukraine Campaigns ?
                      Have seen a photo of German troops wearing tropical kit including tropenhelms in the Crimea here on the WAF somewhere ? Can't recall but think it was '42. Here are a couple photos of the SV287 in the Balkans '43. Hard to tell if they are wearing tropical straps or not ?

                      Does anyone know if the SV287 only wore white waffenfarbe ? Or mixed like the SV288 ?

                      Here is it's OB late '43-44.
                      I/Pz.Gre.Btln.287 (1-6th Companies) ; II/Pz.Gre.Btln.287 (7-8th Companies) ; III/Deutsche-Arabische Ausbildungs Bataliion (9-12th
                      Companies) ; Pz.Jeager.Kp.287 (Anti-Tank Company 287) ; Pz.Spaeh-Kp. 287 (Armored Reconnaissance Company 287) ;
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 11-03-2020, 09:06 PM.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Great picture #54, "captured by camera" - a very tense moment captured for sure !

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post
                          Hi Chris

                          Thanks for the info and added photos
                          The contrast between captors and captured is quite apparent.

                          Now that Italy has been covered very well the question only remains for the Balkan and Ukraine Campaigns ?
                          Have seen a photo of German troops wearing tropical kit including tropenhelms in the Crimea here on the WAF somewhere ? Can't recall but think it was '42. Here are a couple photos of the SV287 in the Balkans '43. Hard to tell if they are wearing tropical straps or not ?

                          Does anyone know if the SV287 only wore white waffenfarbe ? Or mixed like the SV288 ?

                          Here is it's OB late '43-44.
                          I/Pz.Gre.Btln.287 (1-6th Companies) ; II/Pz.Gre.Btln.287 (7-8th Companies) ; III/Deutsche-Arabische Ausbildungs Bataliion (9-12th
                          Companies) ; Pz.Jeager.Kp.287 (Anti-Tank Company 287) ; Pz.Spaeh-Kp. 287 (Armored Reconnaissance Company 287) ;



                          Good day all,


                          Tim thank you for shearing these great pictures, I love to see clear answers about the shoulder straps for this unit, I hope someone could help.

                          Best wishes
                          Khaled

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Oldie, but a goodie.
                            1942, 10thPz/Div passing through Naples. Soutache cap, 3rd pattern tunic.
                            Regards,
                            Mark
                            NZ
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              #59
                              I've seen your photo before when you've posted it on another thread and hadn't really questioned why a cap would still have a soutache at this late date, but as I look more closely it appears that it has been removed and what we are seeing are the remaining traces of the stitch line. Am I correct?

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by OSS View Post
                                I've seen your photo before when you've posted it on another thread and hadn't really questioned why a cap would still have a soutache at this late date, but as I look more closely it appears that it has been removed and what we are seeing are the remaining traces of the stitch line. Am I correct?
                                Thank You OSS - in the original the soutache is clearly present.
                                The cap is very freshly issued, and the soutache, if removed, I believe it would not have left a pale line in comparison, as the thread would also have been unpicked as well.
                                Regards,
                                Mark
                                NZ

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