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    Originally posted by Erich B. View Post
    Perhaps someone could post the photo or a link to the footage. While there's little doubt these hangings were made for the RK or buildings of similar importance, I've never been able to find photos or film linking them to a specific place.

    Erich
    Erich,

    There is period footage shown on the Discovery channel from the Russian archives of soldiers walking across one after taking of the capital. Clark has the snippet from the film attached to his archive http://nsdapuniforms.com/engine/insp...Filter=Archive

    That puts period archive film attributed to the Chancellery of one of these on the floor. As far as their intended place there are no less than 3 written veteran affidavits putting these in the Chancellery and the circumstances in which they were acquired. Could they have been in another building? probably or maybe anyway. There is a maker marked example and the amount which OFW states as dozens is probably over stated and unlike Regimental standards where there are actually dozens to be found, these were apparently centralized, as the story pretty much remains the same and it may account for the appearance or seemingly large amount as they were not scattered all over Germany.

    Comment


      use beyond the RC ???

      Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post
      I always wonder why these are called Reichchancelery banner/tapestry,
      are they property marked so? Is there a specific design chart or manufacture
      order pointing this particular banner/tapestry to the RC building? ...
      Hello FP:
      From post #12, the SA use connection of these banners.

      Likewise, IMO the extended top flap of their design is odd
      looking for a wall hanging, but would fit over a podium top.
      OFW

      (below) As cited this thread SA use connection.
      sigpic
      .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

      Comment


        What difference does it make whether you call it a tapestry or a wall banner or a podium banner? As Shakespeare said, "A rose by any other name...."

        Comment


          J Wraith,

          When I mean "specification for use"...no...I don't mean "instruction on how to hang them on, a wall"...but I am pretty sure you knew exactly what I mean. If these tapestry design was made for the RC. .surely a photo of it should be found hanging on some wall, some where in that building...to date...no have surface. ..not in the main rooms or the less "fancy" administration offices areas..sure..there are few photos of these less impresive work areas in the building. ..but the few know..do not show these tapestry/flags/banner. .or what ever!!

          IF...the ONLY "proof" we have are the photos/newsreel clip showing one of these in the floor in the RC AFTER the Soviet ocuppation...for quite a few days may I add..then we still...in my humble opinion...in a debate on the intended use and place for which these where made, a russian soldier or propaganda officer could have just taken the flag from ANY other gov. building in the proximity of the RC, ministry of propaganda come to mind among others...just to have the vanquished enemy "symbol" on the floor and everyone steping on it as a sign of total victory in the last HQ/top gov. place..the RC....also remember that the russians did not know that the RC/bunker complex was the last gov./command post of the dying Third Reich. There also a very famous photos of a pile of medals in the entry steps of one of the RC main street porticos....that was clearly stage for the camera.

          In my personal opinion what we need to be able to call with all certanty and provenance these tapestry/banners "RC items"....photos of them HANGING on a WALL AT THE BUILDING itself..pre may 1945...in other words...while the third reich goverment was still in power and using the building...to my knowledge. .this have not yet been found.

          The important thing is that you like your tapestry and that your investigation have made clear in your collector/historical perspective that these indeed are and made specificaly for the RC building, I respect that...but I also have my views, questions and historical observations using books, vintage publications, newsreels and other sources to be able to raise some points towards the real provenance, intention of use and yes, place to use, hang, exhibit, etc...these peculiar and particular pieces..is after all my very personal view and analysis on this historical item discusion.

          And...YES...I do read the instructions...from a Home Depot ladder to a new tv or computer. ...the funny thing is...most of todays computer detail intruction manuals have to be downloaded from the internet...so we..the "internet people" have to use the system. .to learn...and..yes..we can learn if we know how to use it.

          Be happy, you have a beautiful tapestry banner of very nice quality, it may or not have been made for the RC building. ..but still is a special piece..once more..my VERY, VERY Personal view and opinion.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post
            J Wraith,

            When I mean "specification for use"...no...I don't mean "instruction on how to hang them on, a wall"...but I am pretty sure you knew exactly what I mean. If these tapestry design was made for the RC. .surely a photo of it should be found hanging on some wall, some where in that building...to date...no have surface. ..not in the main rooms or the less "fancy" administration offices areas..sure..there are few photos of these less impresive work areas in the building. ..but the few know..do not show these tapestry/flags/banner. .or what ever!!
            I knew what you meant, it is however irrelevant as in this case it is not photographed on a wall nor do most artifacts allow us such provenance in many cases, it is however photographed in the RK during the Russian occupation of the building and carries veteran evidence which is more than most items enjoy in the market place. It is a tapestry by definition or a “Wandteppich”. To suggest that the piece is a podium banner is an insult, both to the piece and to my intelligence.


            Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post

            IF...the ONLY "proof" we have are the photos/newsreel clip showing one of these in the floor in the RC AFTER the Soviet ocuppation...for quite a few days may I add..then we still...in my humble opinion...in a debate on the intended use and place for which these where made, a russian soldier or propaganda officer could have just taken the flag from ANY other gov. building in the proximity of the RC, ministry of propaganda come to mind among others...just to have the vanquished enemy "symbol" on the floor and everyone steping on it as a sign of total victory in the last HQ/top gov. place..the RC....also remember that the russians did not know that the RC/bunker complex was the last gov./command post of the dying Third Reich. There also a very famous photos of a pile of medals in the entry steps of one of the RC main street porticos....that was clearly stage for the camera.
            Proof, again does not exist for most items, it is a luxury in others and with the market as it stands now more and more sought after for high end pieces. In the early days the guys bought items and never sought paperwork, they ran hotel buys and carted off war booty never thinking to get a piece of paper as it was not needed. Today things are more complicated and rare pieces of high value require provenance while known items of the period, not so much. Depending on the collector one could drop 5,10, 20 50,100k without provenance depending on the item, and others want provenance and another item may dictate you have that. Fact of the matter is we have no provenance on a whole lot of items, this is not one of them.

            The photo in question is from a moving picture and consists of one second frame that was caught by an astute collector, no emphasis was really placed on it in reality and the still might give it the appearance of propaganda but its a slice of time

            Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post

            In my personal opinion what we need to be able to call with all certanty and provenance these tapestry/banners "RC items"....photos of them HANGING on a WALL AT THE BUILDING itself..pre may 1945...in other words...while the third reich goverment was still in power and using the building...to my knowledge. .this have not yet been found.
            Allow me to massage your language here a little “ You need “ a photo to call with all certainty these tapestry banners. I have more than I need here and more than what is available to most people on many items that sell much higher. Chancellery was not heavily photographed during the war best I can tell. The book issued as it was laid out was in its architecture and furnishings classical in nature and not so much political. By design it almost appears non political other than some mosaics and such.

            Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post

            The important thing is that you like your tapestry and that your investigation have made clear in your collector/historical perspective that these indeed are and made specificaly for the RC building, I respect that...but I also have my views, questions and historical observations using books, vintage publications, newsreels and other sources to be able to raise some points towards the real provenance, intention of use and yes, place to use, hang, exhibit, etc...these peculiar and particular pieces..is after all my very personal view and analysis on this historical item discusion.
            I did not really say that, the provence from multiple veteran sources puts them there, and the film puts one there during the occupation also referenced by veteran sources. In reality the sources and stories whether written or verbal line up in many ways, but this is really not the issue in reality. The issue is a guru crapping on an item at the same claiming to collect only “important things”. That is a problem, and enough of a problem that I simply addressed the issue, at first politely and then not so politely. So unless someone wants to go another round I would consider this matter closed.

            Comment


              Here's another auction listing from April 2013 with documented Reichskanzlei provenance. http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/...cellery-banner

              Comment


                If it's not called a tapestry someone might not get their 11K +.

                Comment


                  This reminds me of another item that to date lacks period photos of its award or use.. and a lor of collectors have search for at least one...the famous SS Mein K. Wood carved Wedding casket.

                  All I have said is that these tapestrys/banners seem to be "still hanging" in place and by some accounts in numbers at the RC building after the soviet occupation for several days...in which they where the sole occupants and went in a rampage of destruction in what was left standing of the building, several British and American GI's stated that the place was almost "bare" of fixtures and or suveniers...and that the rooms where already striped of most of its ornated decorations.

                  So once more, in my very personal opinion unless a photo of these flags..that seem to have been produced in numbers and not "limited"...puting the "bulletproof provenance" of a Reichchancellery specialty item...with what that implies on price and rarity/importance...yes.. I NEED proof ..because of facts, events and circumstances stated before. ......but then...other fellow collectors may need not, and that's perfectly fine with me and respect their opinions, but by the same token they should respect those who think and view the item in a different context of use, location and historical events.

                  Comment


                    I have been reading this thread with much interest as I too have a Reichchancellery Tapestry in my collection. At the moment it is lost in a tub from my last move from Oregon to Phoenix. The condition is not good with no backing and showing evidence of being in a fire and rain (water) damage as well. When I locate it I will post photos to this thread. I purchased it from a very well known Mesa Az dealer many years ago. Daniel tarr817j

                    Comment


                      I don't think these can be compared with the MK box as more solid evidence exists.

                      See post 6 showing the still image I posted in this thread. The full famous Russian film is on YouTube which contains the snippet linked above.

                      The tapestries are found in varying (all quite large) sizes so the varied uses may have applied? With this they are heavy and thick. Imagine a piece of carpet about the size of two standard internal doors.
                      Last edited by robs; 07-17-2014, 03:02 PM.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post
                        This reminds me of another item that to date lacks period photos of its award or use.. and a lor of collectors have search for at least one...the famous SS Mein K. Wood carved Wedding casket.

                        All I have said is that these tapestrys/banners seem to be "still hanging" in place and by some accounts in numbers at the RC building after the soviet occupation for several days...in which they where the sole occupants and went in a rampage of destruction in what was left standing of the building, several British and American GI's stated that the place was almost "bare" of fixtures and or suveniers...and that the rooms where already striped of most of its ornated decorations.

                        So once more, in my very personal opinion unless a photo of these flags..that seem to have been produced in numbers and not "limited"...puting the "bulletproof provenance" of a Reichchancellery specialty item...with what that implies on price and rarity/importance...yes.. I NEED proof ..because of facts, events and circumstances stated before. ......but then...other fellow collectors may need not, and that's perfectly fine with me and respect their opinions, but by the same token they should respect those who think and view the item in a different context of use, location and historical events.
                        Frederico,

                        I would not draw the same lines between an MK casket and a RK Tapestry. It is an apples and orange's comparison as the tapestry's have substantial documentation when compared to an MK box, and to most other items that are widely accepted in the market as original that have no provenance whatsoever. Opinions are fine, however it depends entirely on who is making the statement. If an expert or recognized authority on a particular type of item makes comment on an open platform and calls a mule a horse, or a horse a cat, it should be challenged immediately and swiftly. The amount of items being trashed by the novice and others is quite high, it does not go unnoticed.

                        When its a recognized person that people look to for their expertise and they have no interest, stake, or knowledge of by their own admission the piece in question, then the opinion gives the appearance of being credible and can effect market and therefore mislead any reader or party who chooses to take it as whatever. The amount of items with no provenance sitting in collections is very high and very expensive. Most guys will not post those items or they are safe to post them because of who they are and so on and so forth. Whether I like the item or dont like the item I will generally reserve comment unless I know the answer, or to try and flush information that remains hidden or unseen. There are of course guys who collect that want and need provenance and if I were buying an item that should have it I would seek it. If it is not there than it is either going to reflect in the price, whether a deal is made, or it will be a call in judgement.

                        In other words, don't talk down to an item unless you know the item, and if your opinion matters in the market place than discretion is warranted, here it was ignored and a horse was called a mule by an authority. Now I can staple a ream of paper provenance to some guys head if I like, with some people its never enough and I avoid that generally. Respect and courtesy were initially extended and were essentially rebuked with an opinion that runs in contrast to several statements and notarized documents and know provenance by an authority in an open forum and it was then challenged more directly. What is said on these forums is only trumped by what is known off these forums, you don't want to mistake a horse for a mule and if you need a photo of a horse and mule to make a decision, than happy hunting and god bless.

                        Comment


                          Here's the text from the link I posted earlier

                          "A RARE GERMAN WWII REICH CHANCELLERY BANNER WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE. The single sided tapestry banner entirely hand embroidered (needlepoint) in red, white and black wool. At center on a white medallion embroidered field, a black swastika on its side bordered with bullion edging. The swastika encircled with bullion oak leaves executed in crewel. Further out a double square bullion border with white and black border between. The upper section of the banner is sewn with an open sleeve so as to accommodate a suspension rod. The verso backed in red fabric and reinforced corners, the bottom border with bullion tassels. Light toning consistent with age and overall in very good to excellent condition. 68.5 inches x 51 inches (174 cm x 130 cm).

                          Provenance:
                          Chief Yeoman Le Roy Francis Gereau USN (1921-2005), obtained first hand from the Reich Chancellery, Berlin Germany, May 1945, and by descent to his wife, the consignor. Iowa native Le Roy Francis Gereau enlisted in the U.S. Navy in April of 1940 obtaining the rank of Chief Yeoman. From October 1944-March 1946, he served as the chief administrative clerk to Captain Arthur Harrison Graubart (US Naval Academy class of 1925). Along with Captain Graubart, Gereau was one of the first US Military personnel to visit Berlin at wars end. He also accompanied Captain Graubart to the Potsdam Conference while Captain Gereau (a lifelong Naval intelligence officer once stationed in pre-war Germany-Berlin) discussed the partition of the remainder of the German fleet eventually taking command of the German cruiser Prinz Eugen. According to written documents, the offered banner, along with another identical specimen were obtained by Chief Yeoman Gereau while visiting the Reich Chancellery while on duty in Berlin in May of 1945. One was kept by Gereau while the other was given to Captain Graubart. The banner received by Captain Graubart was donated to the U.S. Naval Academy museum where it is currently on display. The offered lot comes with a profusion of supporting documents consisting primarily of copies of various materials including correspondence with the Senior Curator at the U.S. Naval Academy Museum, correspondence between Gereau and Graubart regarding he banner. An illustrated biography on Gereau, obituaries, service records, photographs and more"

                          I have always considered these to be RC related. Even though, aside from the Soviet film, no photographic evidence has surfaced thus far, all attributions over the years (and I've been collecting since the 1960's) have connected them to the RC. That is probably based on affidavits like the one cited above.

                          One consideration could be that although these were recovered at the RC, they were, in fact, never used or displayed. They could have been produced for anticipated celebrations that never happened...like the Victory over the Soviet Union, Hitler's 55th Birthday, the 20th Anniversary of the November 9 Putsch, or the 10th Anniversary of the January 30 Machtergreifung. All of those would have taken place in 1943 or '44 when, like the Nuremberg party rallies, major celebrations had to be postponed. I would presume they were designed, produced and delivered but never used - hence no photos. Like the RC furnishings, they would have been stored until plundered by the Soviets.

                          As far as my research shows, there are only two sizes. Catalogue, inventory, and auction listings vary slightly but, if measurements are given, they are in the range of tolerance. Differences can be due to inclusion (or not) of the skirt (and if the skirt is complete), the fringe, and the means of measurement. I believe the two sizes were intended for two widths of window ledges, with the skirt attached to a bar on the inside of the window.

                          The example with the luxury RZM tag is an enigma. It is the only one I've seen with any marking at all. Perhaps others had them and they were removed. That may imply SA use or, more likely, in my humble opinion, manufacture under the auspices of the SA. They could have been collectively produced as a gift from the SA for the RC. The traditional static swastika pattern would be a recognition of the DE Standarte and of the Kampfzeit.

                          These are unique in their construction, perhaps someone with greater familiarity with cultural objects can identify a potential maker. The weaving company that produced them no doubt made other decorative tapestries in the same manner. If the tag on the one is any indication, the maker is an RZM licensed company. Perhaps it can be found in the RZM listings for relevant makers.

                          In any case, as suggested, they may indeed been intended for use elsewhere in Berlin's government sector. However, their quality and character, even with the limited evidence of provenance, points to a decorative use of great importance. For me, that would be the RC.

                          No doubt there could be a yet to be discovered period magazine article, RZM reference, an invoice, or some photos somewhere. Until then, these will remain an interesting point of discussion.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by paulj View Post
                            Here's the text from the link I posted earlier

                            "A RARE GERMAN WWII REICH CHANCELLERY BANNER WITH EXCELLENT PROVENANCE. The single sided tapestry banner entirely hand embroidered (needlepoint) in red, white and black wool. At center on a white medallion embroidered field, a black swastika on its side bordered with bullion edging. The swastika encircled with bullion oak leaves executed in crewel. Further out a double square bullion border with white and black border between. The upper section of the banner is sewn with an open sleeve so as to accommodate a suspension rod. The verso backed in red fabric and reinforced corners, the bottom border with bullion tassels. Light toning consistent with age and overall in very good to excellent condition. 68.5 inches x 51 inches (174 cm x 130 cm).

                            Provenance:
                            Chief Yeoman Le Roy Francis Gereau USN (1921-2005), obtained first hand from the Reich Chancellery, Berlin Germany, May 1945, and by descent to his wife, the consignor. Iowa native Le Roy Francis Gereau enlisted in the U.S. Navy in April of 1940 obtaining the rank of Chief Yeoman. From October 1944-March 1946, he served as the chief administrative clerk to Captain Arthur Harrison Graubart (US Naval Academy class of 1925). Along with Captain Graubart, Gereau was one of the first US Military personnel to visit Berlin at wars end. He also accompanied Captain Graubart to the Potsdam Conference while Captain Gereau (a lifelong Naval intelligence officer once stationed in pre-war Germany-Berlin) discussed the partition of the remainder of the German fleet eventually taking command of the German cruiser Prinz Eugen. According to written documents, the offered banner, along with another identical specimen were obtained by Chief Yeoman Gereau while visiting the Reich Chancellery while on duty in Berlin in May of 1945. One was kept by Gereau while the other was given to Captain Graubart. The banner received by Captain Graubart was donated to the U.S. Naval Academy museum where it is currently on display. The offered lot comes with a profusion of supporting documents consisting primarily of copies of various materials including correspondence with the Senior Curator at the U.S. Naval Academy Museum, correspondence between Gereau and Graubart regarding he banner. An illustrated biography on Gereau, obituaries, service records, photographs and more"

                            I have always considered these to be RC related. Even though, aside from the Soviet film, no photographic evidence has surfaced thus far, all attributions over the years (and I've been collecting since the 1960's) have connected them to the RC. That is probably based on affidavits like the one cited above.

                            One consideration could be that although these were recovered at the RC, they were, in fact, never used or displayed. They could have been produced for anticipated celebrations that never happened...like the Victory over the Soviet Union, Hitler's 55th Birthday, the 20th Anniversary of the November 9 Putsch, or the 10th Anniversary of the January 30 Machtergreifung. All of those would have taken place in 1943 or '44 when, like the Nuremberg party rallies, major celebrations had to be postponed. I would presume they were designed, produced and delivered but never used - hence no photos. Like the RC furnishings, they would have been stored until plundered by the Soviets.

                            As far as my research shows, there are only two sizes. Catalogue, inventory, and auction listings vary slightly but, if measurements are given, they are in the range of tolerance. Differences can be due to inclusion (or not) of the skirt (and if the skirt is complete), the fringe, and the means of measurement. I believe the two sizes were intended for two widths of window ledges, with the skirt attached to a bar on the inside of the window.

                            The example with the luxury RZM tag is an enigma. It is the only one I've seen with any marking at all. Perhaps others had them and they were removed. That may imply SA use or, more likely, in my humble opinion, manufacture under the auspices of the SA. They could have been collectively produced as a gift from the SA for the RC. The traditional static swastika pattern would be a recognition of the DE Standarte and of the Kampfzeit.

                            These are unique in their construction, perhaps someone with greater familiarity with cultural objects can identify a potential maker. The weaving company that produced them no doubt made other decorative tapestries in the same manner. If the tag on the one is any indication, the maker is an RZM licensed company. Perhaps it can be found in the RZM listings for relevant makers.

                            In any case, as suggested, they may indeed been intended for use elsewhere in Berlin's government sector. However, their quality and character, even with the limited evidence of provenance, points to a decorative use of great importance. For me, that would be the RC.

                            No doubt there could be a yet to be discovered period magazine article, RZM reference, an invoice, or some photos somewhere. Until then, these will remain an interesting point of discussion.
                            A long time collector in the northeast retains two examples in each size that he purchased from the veteran who bought them home. The veteran stated that the banners were hanging from the walls on an upper level of the RK and that the Russian occupiers had pelted then with wine bottles. On a lower level basement area was a stack of them rolled up. The area was flooded and the bottom examples were under water but the top example remained untouched and he bought two such examples home. So apparently they were both hanging and some were stored in the RK.

                            A year ago or so I got a mail which contained two damaged examples that appeared to have water damage and were in poor condition which is often the case. My response was less than enthusiastic and I explained that the water damage had caused bleeding from the red cloth into the white field and the value would be much lower than what he had in mind. A day or so passed and I deleted the mail and had no interest with damage. Several days later a response came in and the man a Dr. said that they were not water damaged and the stains were wine. I requested the photos again to look closer and it would appear that he was in fact correct and the banner's were both wine stained and it was not bleeding from the red cloth, it was purple.

                            The provenance you listed with the one above should be enough and takes them from the RK through the hands of two veterans, correspondence regarding the banners and a donation of one to the Navy museum. Some docs shown and some not shown, but that is just one with such provenance and there are others with names serial numbers and similar documentation.

                            Comment


                              J Wraith,

                              My friend, you are in your universal right to believe what is correct and historical fact, and once more I respect that fully, I also understand your concerns about what you and other collectors who have one of these magnificent pieces (may or not be ibtended to the RC) what would mean in price and appreciation in the economic and historical factor, since for some the "alluring RC connection" would be lost, I perfectly understand that. My views and analysis of the item connection to the RC is not to denigrate the piece or lower it's value, is just trying to find out if indeed these where made for the Berlin RC use.

                              I don't need a photo of a horse to know is a horse, nor I need a photo of a mule to know a mule....but if one is been told the horse is a PURE BLOOD possible triple crown winner....ohhhh....yes....I will want plenty...PLENTY of photos and proof that the horese IS...THE HORSE....and I don't end with a MULE!!!

                              With all due respect, I don't consider myself a "guru, expert, know it all internet people" I do my personal and collector analysis of pieces, personalitys, places and historical events that most interest me, try always to keep an open mind and ALWAYS looking for new information, every collector, historian and researcher have a particular way to view and make analysis of items, historical events, personalitys and places..and is because that that with each new inquisitive serius reseach work in almast all aspects of human history and artifacts....we got new discoverys and even correct mistakes and wrong views and beliefs.

                              Now this is my personal opinion and have nothing more to add or discuss, I respect your opinion and views and don't want to make this a "you v/s me" thread.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post
                                J Wraith,

                                My friend, you are in your universal right to believe what is correct and historical fact, and once more I respect that fully, I also understand your concerns about what you and other collectors who have one of these magnificent pieces (may or not be ibtended to the RC) what would mean in price and appreciation in the economic and historical factor, since for some the "alluring RC connection" would be lost, I perfectly understand that. My views and analysis of the item connection to the RC is not to denigrate the piece or lower it's value, is just trying to find out if indeed these where made for the Berlin RC use.

                                I don't need a photo of a horse to know is a horse, nor I need a photo of a mule to know a mule....but if one is been told the horse is a PURE BLOOD possible triple crown winner....ohhhh....yes....I will want plenty...PLENTY of photos and proof that the horese IS...THE HORSE....and I don't end with a MULE!!!

                                With all due respect, I don't consider myself a "guru, expert, know it all internet people" I do my personal and collector analysis of pieces, personalitys, places and historical events that most interest me, try always to keep an open mind and ALWAYS looking for new information, every collector, historian and researcher have a particular way to view and make analysis of items, historical events, personalitys and places..and is because that that with each new inquisitive serius reseach work in almast all aspects of human history and artifacts....we got new discoverys and even correct mistakes and wrong views and beliefs.

                                Now this is my personal opinion and have nothing more to add or discuss, I respect your opinion and views and don't want to make this a "you v/s me" thread.
                                Its all good, these were labeled long before I had one as RK so I only know of them for what they are and their background, market refers to them as RK tapestry's so for purposes of language most people do. A picture would be nice, but to this day it eludes us.

                                Comment

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