FlandersMilitaria

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wasserschutzpolizei

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #91
    Good eye Bob; good eye

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by BobI View Post
      Joe,
      Hard to say with such a small group and small number of original daggers. I have seen a handful of daggers without insignia that do have all of the wanted characteristics to be original. It would seem as if long term researchers and collectors do feel the same also.
      Ron, can you offer and details on the daggers that Atwood sold?
      Thanks!
      Bob
      Bob, exactly what information have these researchers found? I have researched the police for for over forty years. I documented my police chapter in Johnson's IV and refused to write on the WSP as I had no documentation, but the chapter was written without new documentation. I can say that the only mention of WSP daggers in official ministerial publication specifies a police insignia. If any researcher has discovered period substantiation, I would like to see it.


      Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post
      These Atwood WPP Daggers had what was considered to be good Eickhorn parts: Blades, scabbards, hilt fittings. Remember, Eickhorn was still in the dagger business in the 1950s and 1960s, so were they original parts (including the blue leather covered wooden grips) or 1960 era parts. Almost impossible to tell AT THAT TIME IMO. As this was not a high demand model, I am sure there were leftover parts at Eickhorn.


      Was there a wartime WPP with plain grip: sure, but only a few known.

      Although Klieitmann has a somewhat sketchy backgroud, he did produce excellent research work and his WSP booklet documents daggers with police insignia. Likewise Andrew provided documentation in his 1967 publication showing WSP dagger with grip insignia. Given the SS-Police Degens and bayonets both featured a police insignia, I find it difficult to understand or accept any naval dagger with blue grip and no police insignia as suitable for use by WSP officers.
      Premium paid for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557

      Comment


        #93
        Of the same opinion. Post #76 by a very reliable source, Wilhelm Saris who was citing period information when he posted this:
        Originally posted by wilhelm Saris View Post
        Page 52 does NOT include information about a dagger, but Seitenwaffen; page 280 mentions:
        die Marinedolche mit dunkelblauem Griff, Polizei-Hoheitszeichen und kugelförmigen ziseliertem Griffkopf.
        This was to be added (renewed) to the information on page 52.

        This was in UM Nr. 18 from September 15, 1939. Page 280
        If the "MANY" daggers were imported from Eickhorn, the lack of a TR period Polizei-Hoheitszeichen was probably to get around the PW laws that forbade NS symbols. FP

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post
          These Atwood WPP Daggers had what was considered to be good Eickhorn parts: Blades, scabbards, hilt fittings. Remember, Eickhorn was still in the dagger business in the 1950s and 1960s, so were they original parts (including the blue leather covered wooden grips) or 1960 era parts. Almost impossible to tell AT THAT TIME IMO. As this was not a high demand model, I am sure there were leftover parts at Eickhorn.

          Ron, Back-in-the-day, I recall seeing more of those no grip emblem versions than the one's with the grip emblems. We kept away from them but it was scary times. Also, Roger Steele has getting good looking 2nd Luft Generals swords from Eickhorn.

          Can you recall if any of them looking like this, or did they all have the type 2 crossguard ?
          -Serge
          .
          Attached Files

          Comment


            #95
            Never saw one with that type of crossguard. I would have remembered that forsure.

            Comment


              #96
              So I visited the police chapter in Atwood's book again. He writes that the Fire Service and the WSP were the only units of the police to wear blade sidearms without the Nazi insignia. He provided a photo of a naval dagger with blue handle and round pommel cap as well as an apparent advertising or catalog drawing of a WSP dagger (with grip insignia). He explained that the WSP dagger had the grip insignia in 1938, but within a few months it was eliminated.



              Can we assume he returned to the US with many KM daggers with blue grips and round pommel caps but no police insignia and then proceeded to write his book that proclaimed these daggers without police insignia later issue originals? And he no documentation of his claim.



              The only other collecting book of the decade I believe was Mollo's and he offered an illustration of a complete WSP dagger with hangers and provided period documentation. And that documentation that Wim corroborated repeats the August 1939 decree describing the sidearm of the WSP with police insignia on blue grip with round pommel cap on a naval dagger.



              The WSP was an extremely small unit of the Order Police. As reported in an police publication just before the war, its manpower was 1250 officers, Meisters and Wachtmeisters. Even with additions early in the war, these ranks were thinned by the transfers to the MKP (Marine Küsten Polizei). There were many officers to wear daggers.
              Premium paid for Walther Model 8 #727649 and Walther PP #975557

              Comment


                #97
                I will never say I have all of the answers but I will say that I would trust any Eickhorn conforming to the exact configuration as the dagger I posted, with or without insignia.

                God this lockdown is annoying, my county was ready to rebel which which I heard on the radio and then the governor made a surprise visit to allow us to open today. I am certain because we were on a county level going to open anyway!
                Bob
                www.collectortocollectormilitaria.com

                sigpic

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by JoeW View Post
                  So I visited the police chapter in Atwood's book again. He writes that the Fire Service and the WSP were the only units of the police to wear blade sidearms without the Nazi insignia. He provided a photo of a naval dagger with blue handle and round pommel cap as well as an apparent advertising or catalog drawing of a WSP dagger (with grip insignia). He explained that the WSP dagger had the grip insignia in 1938, but within a few months it was eliminated.


                  Can we assume he returned to the US with many KM daggers with blue grips and round pommel caps but no police insignia and then proceeded to write his book that proclaimed these daggers without police insignia later issue originals? And he no documentation of his claim.


                  The only other collecting book of the decade I believe was Mollo's and he offered an illustration of a complete WSP dagger with hangers and provided period documentation. And that documentation that Wim corroborated repeats the August 1939 decree describing the sidearm of the WSP with police insignia on blue grip with round pommel cap on a naval dagger.


                  The WSP was an extremely small unit of the Order Police. As reported in an police publication just before the war, its manpower was 1250 officers, Meisters and Wachtmeisters. Even with additions early in the war, these ranks were thinned by the transfers to the MKP (Marine Küsten Polizei). There were many officers to wear daggers.
                  Thank you for your insight on the WSP. I knew (or strongly suspected) that the number was fairly small but did not have an actual number in mind. The April 1940 agreement between the RFSS u. Chef d. Dtsch.Pol.(Himmler) and the OKM as I understand it for the WSP personnel involved - changed their employment status to that of Naval personnel subject to Naval Regulations. The MKP used Wehrmacht (Naval) type terminology for its rank system, but I don’t know how that might have impacted those who came from the WSP. FP

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by BobI View Post
                    I will never say I have all of the answers but I will say that I would trust any Eickhorn conforming to the exact configuration as the dagger I posted, with or without insignia.............................

                    Bob
                    Bob, If I may, in trying to better understand your point of view a question: If the German Police went to the effort to see to it that the circa 1936 and later standard German KS98 Police bayonets, and the circa 1938 and later Police Officer Degens all had grip eagles. What exactly is the rationale for having no grip eagle? Fred

                    Comment

                    Users Viewing this Thread

                    Collapse

                    There is currently 1 user online. 0 members and 1 guests.

                    Most users ever online was 4,375 at 10:03 PM on 01-16-2020.

                    Working...
                    X