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Marseille fake combat report

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    #46
    Let me attempt to shed some light on this. During the time that typewriters were in widespread use, there were a certain number of foundries that cast the type slugs that made the impressions in the paper when typing. Some foundries made type slugs for more than one typewriter manufacturer. Although there were various fonts available with obvious differences, such as script, Elite and Pica, there were other, more subtle differences in the type slugs made by each foundry, and these changed over time. With careful study, looking at things such as the size and shape of serifs in certain characters, and comparing these to known original type slugs where the date and place of manufacturer is known with certainty, it can be possible to say exactly which foundry cast the type slugs used in a typewriter that typed a given document, and also when the slugs were cast. I don't know how many type foundries there were, or how many fonts each foundry cast, or how often the type changed, but I am sure there are countless variables that need to be assessed when analyzing typescript. There is likely no easy magic answer like "all short middle "w" characters must be postwar." Typescript analysis is much more complex than that and requires specialized study and a vast library of known original exemplars. It also requires a knowledge of the way that worn or dirty slugs can affect print quality and appearance. Attempts to oversimplify this lead to confusion and errors.

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      #47
      yep

      agree Chris, hence my comment that questions should be directed to Haas who is a world renowned expert with a vast library of typefaces.

      in any case, we know from him that Ro1 typeface is definitely postwar... end of story...

      it is rather pointless to attempt to draw comparisons with and make broad conclusions regarding other documents typed with different typefaces that we know nothing about, irrespective of similarities in some characters...

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by Jeremy View Post
        Greg, I did not give any comment in this thread, or get the impression myself, that the specific analysis by Haas of the documents in question with specific respect to Ro1 implied all documents with typeface letters containing shortened middle elements were fake... how could anyone seriously draw that conclusion??

        )...
        Jeremy, I didn't say you did imply that documents with those shortened elements were fake!! , as to "how could anyone seriously draw that conclusion?? "
        Search ww2 documents and see how many you can find with M and W with those shortened middle elements, you won't find many at all, and that analysis states (yes for the Ro1 typeface) that those elements were shortened in 1951. That could well have been a new format for any typeface/typescript, at that period in time, and
        I do think it was a reasonable assumption to think ''that it was possible'' that all such M's and W's could be fake (or post ww2) and something worth investigation, as in a field of such complexity it would have been a useful piece of information to any document collectors.

        Originally posted by Jeremy View Post
        I think by now I have made blatantly clear enough for both you and luftm40 regarding what you were querying, and BTW you are both wasting your time attempting to cast doubt on Haas's analysis (for whatever underlying reason)...
        I have no underlying reason, I collect wehrpass and soldbuch, I have a couple of document groups, I don't buy single documents, or such signed documents, and I repeat, have no underlying reasons to discredit anyone or their analysis.

        Chris's comment is insightful (thanks Chris), and yes ''basically'' what he says ''is obvious'', there were obviously many different types of typescripts, typeface whatever, but as I say and have said before,
        ''that doesn't/didn't give any confirmation that there were typescripts with those shortened middle elements during ww2''

        My point has been made here anyway, as it has been shown that there were war time documents with these shortened elements M's and W's which is what I, and I'm sure some others, found as useful information.

        Comment


          #49
          whatever

          well, I disagree it was a reasonable assumption, naive in fact, given the specific focus was on Ro1 with no implication anywhere that this outcome of the analysis applied across all documents whatever the typface...

          anyway, agree you did not mention I implied that, and I did not quote you had... I was just clarifying the erronous comment by luftm40 regarding 'my summary of the analysis' (?)

          and if your purpose was to make a point regarding other documents with typefaces containing characters with shortened middle elements, why not just post the documents stating that, although these were not the same typeface as postwar Ro1, it looks like it was possible for actual wartime typefaces, not Ro1 which is known postwar, to have similar characters...? you could answer your own question with a bit of effort... end of story, we get the point succinctly, and thank you...

          or, you could have even asked Haas, as I said to you several times... anyway, let's move on now that you have the info you asked for
          Last edited by Jeremy; 04-20-2013, 12:01 AM.

          Comment


            #50
            Gentlemen

            So the shortened M's and W's are wartime typeface , very interesting !
            Jeremy since you are so well conected with Herr Hass , perhaps you can ask him if he has checked that the Ro1 typface or something very similar was not used during the war on Italian or British type writers seing that Marseille was serving in the desert with the Italians and fighting the British and their commonwealth allies , perhaps he could have used a captured typewriter !
            Having checked with Herr Hass , he informs us that he only has German typewriter typeface in his vast archives and has not checked foreign typewriters.
            So i dont think we should move on just yet Jeremy , I have been spending a lot of time and money trying to find out what is correct and what is not because contary to your opinion I do not Knowingly sell fakes and if i find out i have a fake , it will go straight back to where it came.
            I agree that we must rid this industry of some of the rubbish that is out there and if as a dealer i can do my bit i will.
            I think it is really unfair that people just keep downloading items from my website that i have purchased in good faith from individuals and dealers from all over the world and lead other people on this site to believe they are Fake with no real evidence other than what Jeremy has come up with , and when , God forbid someone actually questions him he behaves like an angry, arrogant schoolboy.

            Colin Frost
            Legends Aviation Gallery

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by Ralljg52 View Post
              Gentlemen

              So the shortened M's and W's are wartime typeface , very interesting !
              Jeremy since you are so well conected with Herr Hass , perhaps you can ask him if he has checked that the Ro1 typface or something very similar was not used during the war on Italian or British type writers seing that Marseille was serving in the desert with the Italians and fighting the British and their commonwealth allies , perhaps he could have used a captured typewriter !
              Having checked with Herr Hass , he informs us that he only has German typewriter typeface in his vast archives and has not checked foreign typewriters.
              There are Umlaute within the reports and so it would have been a German typewriter that was used and not a captured British or Italian one. Cheers, Torsten.

              Comment


                #52
                Hello,

                do you think this autograph of Hans-Joachim Marseille is original?

                I also found this one in the internet, looks quite the same.

                Greetings.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Copy and ?

                  The first one is not original but a copy. Look at attached image.

                  I think a close up is needed of the second one if you want proper comments. I have seen it for sale by Hermann Historica, but that is no guarantee of originality.

                  J
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                    #54
                    You can find the first one on eBay Germany, the auction ends in ~ 2h. It has already reached 88 euro.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Hi !

                      Things have to be said.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Junk

                        What is this fake factory special worth? So far, 5.5 Euros.

                        https://www.militaria321.com/auktion...tionID=6603686

                        Comment


                          #57
                          same junk

                          And here our two more - amazing how the photos have been trimmed by Hitler Youth so similarly. Just more fake factory.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                            #58
                            This is the third of the matching set from Militaria321... Hitler Youth always trim the photo the same way.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Hi, Jeremy
                              Many thanks to your work on the fake determination. And i have taken a look on your sites. The numbers of fakes is astonishing and involves some dealer's websites that i have once taken a look into. So, luckily, you save me from these fake factories.
                              Many thanks
                              Michael Wang

                              Comment

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