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Another Bomb Squadron Clasp i. Br.-for review

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    #2
    Hi Klaus,

    I see what you are saying about the swastika, interesting flaw with this example and hard to explain. I would chalk it up to a dirty die or something similar, as the clasp itself is a fine original and nicely worn too.

    Tom
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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      #3
      Textbook Juncker. Some flaw can happen from time to time. Great clasp

      Seb
      The German Luftwaffe Pilot and Combined Pilot and Observer Badges of WWII 1933-1945
      Volume I & Volume II


      sigpic

      Now Available
      www.luftwaffepilotbook@gmail.com

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        #4
        Looks like "just enough" for de-nazification to me.
        Regards,

        Brian
        sigpic

        Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
        Frank, Rudolf

        Looking for photos, documents.

        Comment


          #5
          Agree with Brian, IMO not a die flaw but the beginning of denazifiying the clasp.

          Gary B
          ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

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            #6
            Thank you very much for all your comments and expertise !!!
            I was thinking that the reason of the swastika deformation was dirty die, but I cannot exclude the possibility of the attempt to remove it. If this is the case, I am glad that somebody did not finish his job.

            Best regards,
            Klaus

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              #7
              I am more in the side of the die flaw.
              Somebody removing the swaz arm with a cutting tool, would had left bare metal that area and I still see the bronze wash
              No hay rincón en el mundo sin una tumba de un Soldado Español

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                #8
                Originally posted by Francisco V. View Post
                I am more in the side of the die flaw.
                Somebody removing the swaz arm with a cutting tool, would had left bare metal that area and I still see the bronze wash
                Thank you for your comment. interesting observation.
                Best regards,
                Klaus

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Francisco V. View Post
                  I am more in the side of the die flaw.
                  Somebody removing the swaz arm with a cutting tool, would had left bare metal that area and I still see the bronze wash

                  So what kind of metal do you think this is made of that if cut off would leave exactly what color?



                  Does anyone honestly believe this most likely Juncker badge would have made it to the next stage of assembly with kind of "flaw"? Not likely.


                  You are of course free to believe whatever you like and makes you feel good. It's still an honest badge.
                  Regards,

                  Brian
                  sigpic

                  Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
                  Frank, Rudolf

                  Looking for photos, documents.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Francisco V. View Post
                    Somebody removing the swaz arm with a cutting tool, would had left bare metal that area and I still see the bronze wash
                    I agree 100%. This not some attempt at denazification for the exact reason you state, there is bronze finish on the flawed area and that would not be the case if this was denazified.

                    The flaw we are seeing is indeed a problem we see on many Juncker bomber clasps. Usually its in the bottom left of the swastika arm, but there are others were the flaw is starting on the top arm, where it is partially malformed. This clasp is the worst I have see of this flaw, but it is entirely consistent with Juncker bomber clasp production where they were perfectly fine with letting such flawed clasps out of the factory and into the hands of recipients. Most original Juncker clasps have flaws like this! Here are a smattering of different Juncker clasps showing these flaws. I have many, many more on file!

                    The Juncker name is synonomous with "quality", but often times their badges don't live up to the hype. Especially with Luftwaffe badges. Their early pre-war products are definately nice and high quality, but there is a definate drop off in quality control during the war.


                    Tom
                    Attached Files
                    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You are showing an entirely different arm of the same clasp. Flaws don't jump from spot to spot on badges I have seen.


                      But thank you for the photos, I am aware of that bottom fading swaz arm.


                      However it is not clear from your photos the top arm is in danger of fading entirely away.
                      Attached Files
                      Regards,

                      Brian
                      sigpic

                      Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
                      Frank, Rudolf

                      Looking for photos, documents.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Brian S View Post
                        You are showing an entirely different arm of the same clasp. Flaws don't jump from spot to spot on badges I have seen.
                        No ofcourse these don't, I was simply dismantling the notion that Juncker would never allow such flawed clasps to leave the factory. Clearly they did as most Juncker clasps have a heavily flawed swastika. And the clasp in question is no doubt a Juncker product, with the correct hardware, rivetting and finish on it, including the flawed swastika arm.

                        The swastika arms are recessed areas of the stamping die, and they are small areas too, so it wouldn't take much debris in the die to clog part or a whole swastika arm like we see on the clasp in question.

                        Originally posted by Brian S View Post
                        However it is not clear from your photos the top arm is in danger of fading entirely away.
                        The gold clasp I show has a similar flawed top arm to the swastika. Pics isn't the best, but its there. But regardless, we know that there are bottom arms flaws in Juncker clasps, and some clasps with perfect bottom arms. That means that at some point the bottom arm got clogged with debris. So why not the top arm too at some point? If everything else is correct on the clasp, and the hardware is right and the finish is correct, and the rivetting, etc.; then we must conclude that this is a legimate clasp that simply has a production flaw that may or may not be seen on other clasps depending on when the die was clogged and if it was quickly remedied by an observant worker.

                        Tom
                        If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                        New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                        [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                        Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Check out this beauty. Juncker quality at its finest

                          Tom
                          Attached Files
                          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Yeah Tom, OK, Juncker has a die flaw, proves your point, no...


                            A flaw is a flaw. Debris is something entirely else. Debris that in your opinion caused this ugly stamping if indeed that is what it was but wasn't, would have been rejected by the next guy down the line in the finishing process. It would have been a "one off", flaws are flaws and would necessarily have been accepted as best they could do with the die.



                            Arm looks cut away. That's my final response, I am out of wind just reading your long reply which I completely disagree with.
                            Regards,

                            Brian
                            sigpic

                            Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
                            Frank, Rudolf

                            Looking for photos, documents.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Brian S View Post
                              Arm looks cut away. That's my final response, I am out of wind just reading your long reply which I completely disagree with.
                              Long reply to help you see what is going on here. And its for other collectors, not necessarily you Brian as you are clearly cannot see another point of view.

                              Cut away?? That is not correct, whether you want to believe it or not. How exactly would someone cut this away and leave no saw marks?? And not mark up the other areas around it with the tiny saw you think they are using??. It is physically impossible to cut this away like you suggest

                              Tom
                              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                              Comment

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