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U-Boat Badge with Diamonds Kapitän Wolfgang Lüth

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    U-Boat Badge with Diamonds Kapitän Wolfgang Lüth

    Just spotted this on Ulric of England’s website, U-boat Badge with diamonds awarded to Kapitän Wolfgang Lüth..

    Link -

    https://www.ulricofengland.com/index...xn3g8gmc51cv48


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by John R.; 10-01-2019, 08:55 AM.

    #2
    We have seen and discussed this one before. See the pinned thread.

    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=633001

    John

    Comment


      #3
      I do not consider the "provenance" listed by the provider to be credible. The submarine war badge with diamonds and the sword portfolio of Lüth was until a few years ago in an important German collection. The estate of Lüth was acquired in the 1970s by a German collector and author of the widow Lüth for a ridiculous price!

      Comment


        #4
        As stated, the listing in the opening post is not an original diamonds U-Boat badge, but it's worth documenting the issues.

        First, here's the description and the images:

        "U-Boat Badge With Diamonds Belonging to Kapitan Luth | Full Provenance
        U-Boat Badge With Diamonds
        Originally belonging to Kapitan Wolfgang Lüth

        This cased example was originally presented to Kapitan Wolfgang Lüth, and remained with the family until being acquired by Major Jack Angolia at the beginning of the 1960s.

        Manufactured by the firms Schwerin u. Sohn, along with Gebr. Godet & Co. The award was produced in gold plate over silver, and then with an affixed swastika bearing nine diamonds. The reverse with vertical tapered pin assembly. The award typically with the Schwerin, Berlin designation. Size: 4.7cm x 3.7cm. Weight: 27g.
        The case in dark blue leatherette, and without any exterior designation. The interior with off-white silk roof bearing the designation, 'J.Godet & Söhne K.G. Seit 1761 Berlin W8 Unter Den Linden 53'. The fitted base in dark blue velvet.
        Condition report: Very good to excellent condition. 80% gold plate finish remaining, with silver showing through on the highlights. The attached swastika with diamonds in excellent condition.All nine diamonds present. The pin assembly functioning. The case with broken hinge and general wear to the exterior. The interior in excellent condition.

        Provenance: Presented to Kapitan Wolfgang Lüth and retained by the Lüth family until 1962. During 1962, Lüth's U-Boat Badge with Diamonds, and his Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Swords & Diamonds were acquired indirectly from the family by the US Major, Jack Angolia. He kept the awards until the 1970s.
        During the later 1970s, Angolia sold the U-Boat award with Diamonds to the well known US-based collector, Robert McCarthy. The award has remained within the McCarthy family to date. The award sold together with a signed letter from former Major Jack Angolia (dated July 2019) confirming the above details. Also included a signed letter from Robert McCarthy's wife, confirming the above details."
        Attached Files

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          #5
          The Angolia connection is interesting. As Sepp posted previously in the U-Boat diamonds badge reference thread, Angolia published a photo of his piece in his book "Military awards of the Third Reich".

          What you can see here is that it's the same presentation case as shown in the Ulric listing, so that part of the provenance is true. However, the badge in that photo is clearly different.
          Attached Files

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            #6
            Some further comparisons for reference.

            First, the Ulric badge (which is based upon a regular Schwerin badge design but with a cartoonishly large swastika) next to an original Type 1 U-Boat Badge with Diamonds attributed to Lüth.

            Second, the Angolia published badge next to the original Type 1 U-Boat badge with Diamonds attributed to Lüth.

            Finally, the Angolia badge next to a post-war Souval "diamonds" badge showing the same obverse design.
            Attached Files

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              #7
              Uboat badge

              Bob McCarthy died in Nov 2016. His entire collection was sold by Hermann’s Historica. If the story was true the badge would have been in the auction. I knew Bob for over 30 years and he never owned that badge when I knew him, and I was in his house and collection room during that time at least 500 times. So that part of the story is total BS. Could he have owned it prior to the 80’s when I first met him? Anything is possible but in all the times I spoke to him he never mentioned it, and that I think would be out of character for him.

              Comment


                #8
                Brian,

                I was truly disappointed when I ordered the HH catalogue of Bob McCarthy's collection as the pieces I wanted had already gone.

                I therefore don't think that you can claim that his "entire collection" was sold by HH.

                Stan

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                  #9
                  Badge

                  To clarify, Bob had started selling some pieces of the collection a couple of years before he passed when he first had some serious health problems. I know that as I bought some of the items that he had owned for years and would never part with before. Immediately after he died a few more pieces were sold by the family. However, the bulk of the collection that he still had when he died was sold by Hermanns. My point only was about the Uboat badge, that was not in his collection up until his death as stated in the alleged provinance from the wife, nor was it in his collection during the years that I knew him. He used to tell me I knew his collection better than he did and I absolutely never saw that piece. I would be very curious to see these documents from Bob and his wife about the badge.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I, too, knew Bob McCarthy, from the 1963 until his death in 2016.
                    Although I was never a medal & badge collector, we lived 15 minutes away from each other and hence, visited each other very often.
                    During those visits, we would show each other our latest additions.
                    Without a doubt, Bob would have proudly shown me this badge.
                    He did not, so I must agree with Brian and his assertion that Bob never owned it!!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hope these photos I post will help this discussion as I am not a KM expert, but luckily I have been permitted access to some nice KG photos!

                      I have nothing more to share than the photos in my collection- but I hope these photos in my position - physical photos, not just digital images, will help to move along this thread!
                      If not, sorry- if so well done. At any rate, these photos cannot be discounted as fake. That is an absolute certainty. What is decided, depends on experts more knowledgeable than me.
                      Last. I hope I posted what I posted on the correct thread!
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Hi Volksturmer,

                        Your 1982 Kodak photos are apparently the same ones used on page 123 of Angolia's "For Führer and Fatherland: Military Awards of the Third Reich" - when you compare them you can see subtle shared features on the background. Do you recall how you acquired them?

                        At any rate, clearly not a Godet product nor an "official" U-Boat with diamonds, Angolia's description notwithstanding. And also not the same badge as the Souval that's shown in the "Godet" case on page 122 of the book.

                        Best regards,
                        ---Norm
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Norm,
                          Thanks for your response.
                          I am not as well versed in KM items as you gents. The best I have on the KM are photos and books, although I think they are some of the most beautiful awards of the era.
                          I am a Civil Awards collector, so I don’t have the knowledge you guys have. I just noticed this one because I have photos of it. I think these are actual photo reprints from Angolia’s 1976 version of the book.

                          However, IMO only, this may be one of those badges that need to be examined ‘in hand’ to make a final decision on. As I am very certain you know as an advanced collector, holding a badge and seeing it under magnification can make all the difference.
                          This might be one that warrants such a look. Especially given what it purports to be, and how long it’s been around. Also due to the diamonds- the cut and setting of the diamonds are very difficult to fake, given that the way diamonds were set back then was an art form that was unique to that time, and changed era to era.
                          Anyhow, the badge on Ulrics site and the badge in Angolia’s book look like they are the same to me.

                          I think an ‘in hand’ inspection would tell the story.
                          I know I would love to meet this badge ‘in person,’ instead of seeing it in a book, or in a photo!

                          Thanks for letting me add to the discussion!
                          Last edited by Volksturmer; 12-04-2019, 06:41 PM.

                          Comment


                            #15
                            Hi Volksturmer,

                            In hand examinations are great (and better still under a microscope), but no amount of examination can change the fact that the Angolia/Ulric "Lüth" badge is not an original U-Boat badge with diamonds.

                            Here's that badge next to the original U-Boat badge with diamonds awarded to Merten four days after Lüth's, and again next to Lüth's own U-Boat badge with diamonds which it was claiming to be -- I think you'll agree that by no stretch of the imagination is that an original.

                            There were two sizes of diamond swastikas produced for the U-Boat with diamonds -- the smaller Type 1 from 1940 to 1943 and the larger Type 2 after January, 1943. Regardless of size the construction and style of the two types were the same, and both were vastly different from the one on the Angolia badge which is way too large and a different style. You are quite correct when you say that "the cut and setting of the diamonds are very difficult to fake" and that's why they in fact got it wrong.

                            And as to "how long it's been around", the 70s and 80s were a heyday for reproductions so the vintage is about right for showing up in Angolia's book.

                            There's lots to read about these badges in the pinned reference thread mentioned by John previously.

                            Best regards,
                            ---Norm
                            Attached Files

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