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FLL Cupal Destroyer!

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  • jlga
    replied
    Very nice badge Patrick and rare, love these cupal badges

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  • Patrick W
    replied
    Thanks Gary- I’m aiming for 10!

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  • Gary B
    replied
    By my count that makes 3 for you, Patrick! Congrats on another rare find! Of course if you keep on finding them they will not be rare...so stop!

    Gary B

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  • Patrick W
    replied
    Here's another one just in- sadly main pin is missing- appears top hook is same type that would have been on the Weitze badge judging by the narrow gauge of the wire visible where it broke off.
    Attached Files

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Hi Tony,

    The brighter red-orange areas on the Cupal and on the Tombak badges you show is not "patina". It's actually the opposite of patina, ie. clean copper or Tombak (85% copper) base metal that is showing something close to it's true colour. With age, a patina forms which makes it look more golden-brown, but if you polish it (or god forbid clean it with vinegar or Ketchup) you'll get a brighter red-orange colour again. The highlights of the obverse are exposed to rubbing which exposes the native colour.

    Cupal, on a direct obverse view, will look the same as high-copper content Tombak. The distinction lies in the weight (much lighter) and the close examination of the margins where you can see the edge of the copper layer that is heat-pressed on to the aluminum core.

    Hope that clarifies things.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 01-20-2018, 10:33 AM.

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  • Tony Bologna
    replied
    So I wanted to show you two badges with the red patina. The patina on the Destroyer is strikingly similar to the Destroyers in question. It's interesting to see how the inner leaves along the the upper wreath give off the impression there's red underneath but there is clearly tombak on the edge of the ship and tips of the waves to suggest it's not copper in the base metal. The Coastal Artillery Badge is almost completely red but these pictures do not show it. It has the tombak color but also a bright red color.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Tony Bologna; 01-19-2018, 07:17 PM.

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  • Gary B
    replied
    Thanks, Patrick.

    Gary B

    [Editor's note: uploaded the photos saved from the sales thread ]
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 01-20-2018, 10:46 AM.

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  • Patrick W
    replied
    Currently away from my computer for a couple of days but will put them up on Sunday evening

    [Editor's note: uploaded the photos saved from the sales thread ]
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 01-20-2018, 10:45 AM.

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  • Gary B
    replied
    Hi Patrick,

    Would it be possible for you to post the other pictures you had on the e-stand as the thread has been soft deleted since the badge has sold.

    Thanks.

    Gary B
    Last edited by Gary B; 01-19-2018, 11:33 AM.

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  • Patrick W
    replied
    Thanks Norm, that’s saved me taking more pics! You can also clearly see the copper showing through on the eagle of the Weitze example.

    The badges are fully bronze finished as you say- the previous example I had had a lighter colour to the bronze than this new one which is chocolate brown - both badges near mint so I guess they also experimented slightly with the finish or did a couple of production runs.

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  • Norm F
    replied
    I discovered that a few of the old linked images in the first posting of one of these Destroyers by martinez-1980 back in 2010 still work, and this closeup clearly shows that this is indeed Cupal, just as Sven said.

    In this closeup you can see three features:

    1) the orange copper-toned layer on the obverse that is most apparent from the worn highlights and the distinct linear margin
    2) the rough-textured silver-coloured aluminum on the margins
    3) the bronze-coloured finish that is applied to the whole badge -- this is not patina after all.

    So these weren't unfinished badges, but rather a limited edition in Cupal with this bronze-coloured finish (although possibly it may have looked more golden when new).

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 01-19-2018, 12:20 PM.

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Too many simultaneous threads on the same topic. In this thread, Sven already posted a photo, albeit a rather small one. It would be nice to see better closeups for future reference.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Well, I guess that's a thought. On these photos, we're seeing nothing but a cuprous coating with patina over the whole badge, so instead of Cupal could this be aluminum that is flash-coated in brass (if that's technically feasible)? In that case it would be the same weight and elemental composition as Cupal but a different production process.

    Perhaps Patrick and/or Sven could provide good magnification views of the margins of the badges to make this distinction.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

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  • Tony Bologna
    replied
    Thanks for the response Norm, I certainly wont argue the weight, but shouldn’t we presume that these are then Aluminum until an example of one with visible Copper coating is actually provided?

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Hi Tony,

    As mentioned in your other thread (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post8052382), the difference is apparent in hand and in the weights. The Tombak version weighs about 35 grams while the Cupal version only about 12 grams.

    The colour is misleading since, as mentioned in Patrick's more recent thread (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=944644), for some reason the four examples posted to date all lack any gilding and you only see the brass patina surface coating (the "Cup" part of "Cupal").

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

    Leave a comment:

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