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FLL Cupal Destroyer!

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    #16
    Originally posted by Norm F View Post
    Hi Patrick,

    Great to see another example! This is DC# 4.1.2 in the comprehensive Destroyer classification system. Back when I added it to that table I had broken my own rule of including only variants for which more than 1 example exist, but I just figured that Weitze example couldn't be the only one...

    Thanks for showing this one as proof!

    Now the question is whether that main pin on the Weitze example was a replacement -- it looks less "FLL-like" than the round-wire pin on your example.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Hi Norm,
    Here is another with third type of main pin:
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=417030
    Cheers,
    Hubert
    Always looking for rare Minesweeper badges and other KM awards

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by John Robinson View Post
      By the way, the young sailor on the cover of Vol. III is Norm's father and the tally reads Graf Spee, one of his many assignments through officer rank to the end of the war fighting in Italy.

      With a great deal of luck, he arrived home in 1948 or so after being taken prisoner by the partisans in Yugoslavia after Germany surrendered.

      John
      Really? Great photo! Great Story and of course nice badge!

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by BubbaZ View Post
        Hi Norm,
        Here is another with third type of main pin:
        http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=417030
        Cheers,
        Hubert
        Yes, indeed. Looking back at my tentative (and incorrect) assessment back then is as embarrassing as looking at an old high school yearbook...

        Best regards,
        ---Norm

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Norm F View Post
          Yes, indeed. Looking back at my tentative (and incorrect) assessment back then is as embarrassing as looking at an old high school yearbook...

          Best regards,
          ---Norm
          Well, at that time I was not even a member of any forum , accidentally found that old thread and thought it was worth to mention since those FLL Destroyers are really rare buggers
          Cheers,
          Hubert
          Always looking for rare Minesweeper badges and other KM awards

          Comment


            #20
            I'd like to bring this thread back up to the top as I am stating the claim that these "Cupal" FLL Destroyers are actually just tombak with red patina. Below is a picture of Coastal Artillery badge exhibiting similar characteristics around the breech as these destroyers. To the right is a ROAG from FLL that is Cupal. It is a night and day difference and I believe there is no such thing as a Cupal FLL Destroyer, at least based on these examples.


            Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
            I don't know how you always do it Patrick, but you do!! Although I have never seen such a badge before, it is 100% believable. Correct FLL hardware and construction, and we know FLL used Cupal on some of their LW badges (i.e. Observers and ROAGs).

            Great find, keep it up.

            Tom
            Attached Files

            Comment


              #21
              Hi Tony,

              As mentioned in your other thread (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post8052382), the difference is apparent in hand and in the weights. The Tombak version weighs about 35 grams while the Cupal version only about 12 grams.

              The colour is misleading since, as mentioned in Patrick's more recent thread (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=944644), for some reason the four examples posted to date all lack any gilding and you only see the brass patina surface coating (the "Cup" part of "Cupal").

              Best regards,
              ---Norm

              Comment


                #22
                Thanks for the response Norm, I certainly wont argue the weight, but shouldn’t we presume that these are then Aluminum until an example of one with visible Copper coating is actually provided?

                Comment


                  #23
                  Well, I guess that's a thought. On these photos, we're seeing nothing but a cuprous coating with patina over the whole badge, so instead of Cupal could this be aluminum that is flash-coated in brass (if that's technically feasible)? In that case it would be the same weight and elemental composition as Cupal but a different production process.

                  Perhaps Patrick and/or Sven could provide good magnification views of the margins of the badges to make this distinction.

                  Best regards,
                  ---Norm

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Too many simultaneous threads on the same topic. In this thread, Sven already posted a photo, albeit a rather small one. It would be nice to see better closeups for future reference.

                    Best regards,
                    ---Norm

                    Comment


                      #25
                      I discovered that a few of the old linked images in the first posting of one of these Destroyers by martinez-1980 back in 2010 still work, and this closeup clearly shows that this is indeed Cupal, just as Sven said.

                      In this closeup you can see three features:

                      1) the orange copper-toned layer on the obverse that is most apparent from the worn highlights and the distinct linear margin
                      2) the rough-textured silver-coloured aluminum on the margins
                      3) the bronze-coloured finish that is applied to the whole badge -- this is not patina after all.

                      So these weren't unfinished badges, but rather a limited edition in Cupal with this bronze-coloured finish (although possibly it may have looked more golden when new).

                      Best regards,
                      ---Norm
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Norm F; 01-19-2018, 12:20 PM.

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                        #26
                        Thanks Norm, that’s saved me taking more pics! You can also clearly see the copper showing through on the eagle of the Weitze example.

                        The badges are fully bronze finished as you say- the previous example I had had a lighter colour to the bronze than this new one which is chocolate brown - both badges near mint so I guess they also experimented slightly with the finish or did a couple of production runs.
                        Best regards, Patrick

                        "Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Hi Patrick,

                          Would it be possible for you to post the other pictures you had on the e-stand as the thread has been soft deleted since the badge has sold.

                          Thanks.

                          Gary B
                          Last edited by Gary B; 01-19-2018, 11:33 AM.
                          ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Currently away from my computer for a couple of days but will put them up on Sunday evening

                            [Editor's note: uploaded the photos saved from the sales thread ]
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Norm F; 01-20-2018, 10:45 AM.
                            Best regards, Patrick

                            "Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Thanks, Patrick.

                              Gary B

                              [Editor's note: uploaded the photos saved from the sales thread ]
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Norm F; 01-20-2018, 10:46 AM.
                              ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

                              Comment


                                #30
                                So I wanted to show you two badges with the red patina. The patina on the Destroyer is strikingly similar to the Destroyers in question. It's interesting to see how the inner leaves along the the upper wreath give off the impression there's red underneath but there is clearly tombak on the edge of the ship and tips of the waves to suggest it's not copper in the base metal. The Coastal Artillery Badge is almost completely red but these pictures do not show it. It has the tombak color but also a bright red color.
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by Tony Bologna; 01-19-2018, 07:17 PM.

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