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Fleet badge with "Diamonds"

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Originally posted by Sepp45 View Post
    Norm, this is a 1985 picture of the Schniewind badge from Huesken
    Yes indeed, the same fantasy badge discussed in 2016:
    http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...17#post7631317

    In that photo the badge is strategically placed to cover up the problems with the word "Brillanten" in the document.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

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  • Sepp45
    replied
    Norm, this is a 1985 picture of the Schniewind badge from Huesken
    Attached Files

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  • Norm F
    replied
    The reverse shows that it's the same type of diamonds badge as the one that is being discussed in the other thread from the old Huesken sales listing with the fake award document.
    HSF with diamonds story - General-Admiral Otto Schniewind
    which was also claimed to be Schniewind's. The hand finishing of the margins varies on the two examples.
    Attached Files

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  • Norm F
    replied
    It turns out that Nimmergut's Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen shows both the obverse and reverse of what appears to be the same badge as the one in the Hamburg Maritime Museum.

    This one is described by Nimmergut as:
    "Von Schwerin existiert eine Prägung der normalen Ausführung, in bester Qualität, in Silber vergoldet, bei der Die Anbringung der Diamanten unfachmännisch ist. Auf der RS die Silberpunze 800."

    "From Schwerin there exists a stamping of the normal manufacture, in the best quality, in gilded silver, in which the mounting of the diamonds is unprofessional. On the reverse side the silver mark 800."

    Nimmergut provides no reference for that statement but it certainly does not look like a normal Schwerin production.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Originally posted by John Robinson View Post
    So not one single other HSF badge has that notch in it Norm?

    John
    Correct. This can be seen in the pinned database thread and also in the Fleet badge classification thread. Only that fake has the deep downward notch in the cutouts under the secondary armament on both the left and right sides of the badge.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

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  • John R.
    replied
    So not one single other HSF badge has that notch in it Norm?

    John

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  • John R.
    replied
    Well, it seems that the fake RSS HSF badges came out of the UK at some point. Perhaps the diamonds fake of that badge came from there also.

    I remember years ago almost every single RSS HSF badge on UK dealer sites (many of them anyway) were of the fake example.

    I personally believe that most the diamonds badge fakes of all types came from a group of dealers in on the scam or certain collectors who made their badge (period or not) into a "diamonds" badge just for fun, during a period of time when the badge itself was not expensive. Say in the 1970's.

    John

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Here's a closer comparison. No other Fleet badge has those matching details including the notched cutouts under the secondary armament, the rectangular portholes and the prominent dot in the eagle's eye. So it appears this "diamonds" badge was just the limited edition of the standard "R.S.&S." fake.

    Just to reiterate, it seems that any Fleet badge with diamonds is a fantasy item for the collector market.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 11-22-2016, 10:54 PM.

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  • Norm F
    replied
    Originally posted by Norm F View Post
    This badge posted by Sepp isn't the Souval design so a bit off topic, but it's worth commenting on as it's an odd duck. It looks different from any standard Fleet badge in the small details and seems to be from an unrelated die and then gems simply studded into the standard-sized swastika.
    Here's something interesting. I found a better photo of the badge from that private collection in the Hamburg maritime museum. I was staring at that unique obverse design and it dawned on me where I had seen it before. It's the same as the fake R.S.&S. Fleet badges!
    Attached Files

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  • John R.
    replied
    3
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  • John R.
    replied
    2
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  • John R.
    replied
    I just visited the Maritime Museum in Hamburg. Also remember this is a private museum and as I understand it, much of what is in it was bought by the owner for display in that museum.

    I would highly recommend visiting the museum if you visit Hamburg. Very big, something like 7 floors and I spent 5 hours there and there is so much that I did not have time to really study everything there.

    The same badge posted by Sepp.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by John R.; 03-18-2015, 08:38 AM.

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  • Sepp45
    replied
    Originally posted by John Robinson View Post
    Why do you say it was awarded that date?

    John
    That's the date it says..

    Despite the fact we all know that award document is a fake, it's the only reference I have about it.
    Attached Files

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  • John R.
    replied
    It is possible that the museum displays involve tax write offs maybe. That could explain why they are there, somebody making money with the tax deduction by convincing the museum curator to accept the story and the artifact and provide a receipt for the donation.

    Think about it, especially when you see these diamonds badges listed on dealer sites.

    I am not saying this is what is happening, I am only suggesting that valuation can be proved through auction listings and claimed sales.

    Happens all the time with ancient ceramics, and just because an artifact has a "sold" notation, that sold notation might only be there to establish value in the paper trail, including insurance claims.

    I am not at all claiming this is the case with the badge listed in the above auction listing or the badge in Hamburg, I am saying it is the case with ancient artifacts, fake ancient artifacts, stolen artifacts, etc.

    John

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  • John R.
    replied
    Originally posted by Stan View Post
    No Ludwig, not surprised at all but VERY disappointed.

    Still, is it any different on estand?

    Stan
    Stan,

    There is a difference I think in that on estand there is the ability to discuss any listed artifact by a moderator linking a discussion thread to the sales thread. This back and forth discussion between the sale thread and the discussion thread enables a potential buyer to think about the item and make up their mind based on the information provided.

    This is not possible usually during an auction unless some forum gets interested maybe.

    If you, or anybody else, spots a Kriegsmarine item that should be discussed, start a discussion thread and let Norm or myself know so we can link the two threads.

    Estand is not perfect, but the issues there on authenticity are not usually the issues that plague collectors--payment, shipping, damage, etc, are the problems, all of which can and should be avoided using a bit of common sense.

    John
    Last edited by John R.; 08-30-2014, 04:33 PM.

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