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PAB 75 JFS x 2

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    #31
    Hi Tom,

    Thanks for your reply. Yes I agree with you that the gold finish couldnt fade away. Look at the ground dug badge – 70 yers in the ground + heavy cleaning and the finish is still there.

    For me this PABs with grey wreaths are still a mystery. We know also many excelent examples of JFS 75 or 100 PABs with grey wreath plus bronze coated PAB.

    More opinions welcome.

    Best regards
    Pavel

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      #32
      Hi Pavel,

      Possible explanation:

      Silvering for the tank was still available at JFS.

      The needle systems have already been delivered gold plated by the supplier.

      the gilding should be applied later with the brush if available ...

      regards fafnir

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by pavels_2005 View Post
        Hi Tom,

        Thanks for your reply. Yes I agree with you that the gold finish couldnt fade away. Look at the ground dug badge – 70 yers in the ground + heavy cleaning and the finish is still there.

        For me this PABs with grey wreaths are still a mystery. We know also many excelent examples of JFS 75 or 100 PABs with grey wreath plus bronze coated PAB.

        More opinions welcome.

        Best regards
        Pavel
        Yes I agree Pavel. We are just missing something here with these grey wreath examples. Maybe a late war regulation change were the grey wreath was instituted, who knows. We are missing a piece of the puzzle.

        Tom
        If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little......


        New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
        Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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          #34
          Originally posted by fafnir View Post
          Possible explanation:

          Silvering for the tank was still available at JFS.
          I don’t think this was the case. It doesn’t take much gold finish to complete a badge, the finish is very thin and you could probably do 100 badges with a cup full. And especially with a quality maker like JFS, I really don’t think they would complete an order or badges for the government with no gold finish on the wreath, such a blast at disregard for the appearance of a badge would not be acceptable at all, even so late in the war.

          There must be a good and legitimate reason why these left the factory this way.

          Tom
          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little......


          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

          Comment


            #35
            Hello Thomas,

            you certainly don't need much gold, but you need something.

            We are talking about the last months of the war.

            The front was close, traffic hubs under constant airstrikes.

            If I had a factory and an order for the badges and I would have everything except the golden color, then I would let the workers build the badges without the last work step instead of building nothing...

            difficult, everything just theories...

            I have also found two pictures with PAB 75 ground dugs, which show (bright) gold plating on my computer.

            Unfortunately, I don't know the origin anymore and I don't know if I can show it here...

            regards Sammli

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              #36
              OK we have 2 theories:

              1. (Tom) – maybe the regulation changed at the end of war and the suppliers were allowed to supply grey wreath badges. I know people say that also Juncker pieces are known with grey wreaths. Some people also say there are period pictures of soldiers wearing grey wreath badges. Any further evidence?


              2. (Fafnir) – this are left overs from JFS factory. Not finished pieces that were waiting for the last step – coating of the wreath with gold. As I wrote – technologicaly it would be dificult to coat the wreath all over and not touch the silver panzer. Also the area of number box would be dificult. Covering only the number ant not touch the black paint around the number. But who knows.....

              Any more ideas? Or pictures of gold wreath badges?

              Best regards
              Pavel

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                #37
                mistake, sorry

                Comment


                  #38
                  mistake

                  Comment


                    #39
                    If the grey wreath badges were supposed to be so then why not do the whole thing grey ? Like it’s camo

                    Unfinished hoard in my opinion if there is no gold on the wreath like you say,

                    Kind regards Chay
                    Interested in collecting historical objects in a gentlemanly fashion
                    100% Christian :)))
                    Chay-Stevenson@live.co.uk

                    Comment


                      #40
                      In my honest opinion these where unfinished products, like you see with other awards on the barter/salesman boards

                      Leftover stock was sold (or traded) to make some quick money postwar. I don't think the Germans would ever award unfinished products, a grey wreath award is not just attractive at all.

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                        #41
                        Hi,

                        on internet I found a panzer regiment soldier grouping ( sorry for using the pictures...). This grouping includes JFS 75 PAB with grey wreath. The PAB was awarded 5.12.1944 and was possibly denazified later in POW camp.

                        We can see that such pieces with grey wreath were awarded and are not only unfinished factory leftovers.

                        Any more opinions?

                        Best regards
                        Pavel
                        Attached Files

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                          #42
                          Thanks for sharing that great grouping Pavels!
                          Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Hello Pavel,

                            Thanks for the pictures. I've seen such a denazified PAB 75 at GCA before ... maybe it was the same !?

                            That's a clear indication that these gray ones were actually spent. Especially as it has signs of wear.

                            Still, I can see gilding on most ground dugs.

                            I can find in my data 6 well-preserved ground dugs.

                            On 3 pieces are definitely gold traces to recognize. On 2 pieces a brown patina points to a former gilding.

                            Only one piece shows nothing.

                            Interesting topic
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Hier ein Stück mit der erwähnten braunen patina. Welche meiner meinung nach auf eine ehemalige vergoldung deuten könnte.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Here is a piece with the brow patina, which in my opinion also indicates a former gilding

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