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Honor Clasps of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS

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    Originally posted by Ноnоr View Post
    I have spent a lot of time comparing these clasps, so I can assure you with confidence that all Honor Roll clasps have been trimmed by hand (beyond doubt) both "full-design-" and "cut-design" versions because there are differences in their internal margins.
    Hi Honor,

    Even so, for the examples with the remarkably consistent outlines, I wager a trimming stamp is used first and then a bit of fine-tuning by hand which accounts for the signs of hand finishing that you're seeing. Also, the thinner the planchet (and these are much thinner than any other KM badge) the more shear force distortion of the margins from the trimming stamp which could further contribute to the small differences you're seeing. By contrast, the fully hand-cut examples show wild variability.

    This duplicity of techniques is common in other Kriegsmarine awards; we see the same for Schwerin's, Meybauer's and Juncker's early Tombak U-Boat badges which start with more variable hand-cuts in the early variants that are later replaced by standardized trimming stamps requiring only touchups.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

    Comment


      Honor read my thread which stated in a book that there were two makers of this award- Klein and Juncker.

      I am now posting a scan of the page in the book which was Nimmergut's "Deutscher Orden und Ehrenzeichen bis 1945" which was published in 2001.

      Honor argues that the Luftwaffe and KM HRC's exhibit the same characteristics as the one piece and two piece Army HRC's which are not of Klein manufacture. He also has proof that the KM and LW HRC's were made by Juncker, so why not the Army version also?

      Nimmergut states that the Army version came in a case with White velour material for Klein and Blue/Black for Juncker. This is the same as the KM and LW HRC awards.

      Here is the scan which Honor has asked me to post.

      Stan
      Attached Files

      Comment


        Thanks Stan. It certainly all hangs together.

        Nimmergut was pretty good about his use of footnotes and annotations (for example, when he references correspondence from Schwerin & Sohn indicating they were the first maker of KM badges). Too bad there's no primary reference given for the Juncker attribution. Mind you, it's possible that in the past there was more packaging around like the Luftwaffe carton shown by Honor to make it seem self-evident.

        Best regards,
        ---Norm

        Comment


          Here is the Clasp sold by Weitze last week with accompanying citation and liste. It is just like the one-piece (Stepdale and Bob) shown on this thread - with matching leaf veins and flaw on the upper arm on the HK. This was sold as a set from a relatively recent private household purchase. If the dealer's story is to be believed, this further supports this as an original clasp - this one being a later award (October 1944). It's the same one listed on post #163 on this thread.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Brian R; 09-18-2015, 04:13 PM.
          sigpicIron Cross Award Documents of World War II - Out Now!

          info@kleinekillpress.com
          www.kleinekillpress.com

          Comment


            Originally posted by Brian R View Post
            Here is the Clasp sold by Weitze last week with accompanying citation and liste. It is just like the one-piece (Stepdale and Bob) shown on this thread - with matching leaf veins and flaw on the upper arm on the HK. This was sold as a set from a relatively recent private household purchase. If the dealer's story is to be believed, this further supports this as an original clasp - this one being a later award (October 1944). It's the same one listed on post #163 on this thread.
            What does the reverse look like on this? What pin configuration?
            Looking for documents/items pertaining to Warsaw 1944 Uprising

            Comment


              Hi Paul - It's the crimped flat type - see post #163.
              sigpicIron Cross Award Documents of World War II - Out Now!

              info@kleinekillpress.com
              www.kleinekillpress.com

              Comment


                From the latest Hermann Historica auction. Another example of the one-piece Juncker-attributed type but a strange Frank & Reif envelope with it.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  Thanks for showing, Norm. The clasp looks consistent with the others but I don't know what to make of the packet.
                  sigpicIron Cross Award Documents of World War II - Out Now!

                  info@kleinekillpress.com
                  www.kleinekillpress.com

                  Comment


                    I'm not convinced that the packet is right.

                    Never seen a packet for a HRC. Would such a prestigious award come in a packet?

                    Allan
                    Looking for information on RKT KARL HUBER
                    Stoßtruppführer AufKlAbt 20 (mot.)

                    'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

                    Comment


                      Certainly no expert on packets, but the style of the lettering on this one looks a lot to me like the fake JFS packets for EK2s and tank destruction strips that I used to see years ago in the militaria shows inEurope.
                      I am searching for medals and badges from Gablonz makers.

                      Comment


                        I'm far from a medal and badge expert like most guys on this forum, but I am just baffled by the variation in quality between the Klein piece and the one-piece Juncker pieces. The Klein clasps are very clean and crisp while the Junkers are just downright ugly, comparatively speaking. Even though they are simple, stamped clasps, I would imagine better quality from a company like Juncker. Could their ability to produce quality items have been compromised by the Berlin bombings by mid-1944?
                        sigpicIron Cross Award Documents of World War II - Out Now!

                        info@kleinekillpress.com
                        www.kleinekillpress.com

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Brian R View Post
                          I'm far from a medal and badge expert like most guys on this forum, but I am just baffled by the variation in quality between the Klein piece and the one-piece Juncker pieces. The Klein clasps are very clean and crisp while the Junkers are just downright ugly, comparatively speaking. Even though they are simple, stamped clasps, I would imagine better quality from a company like Juncker. Could their ability to produce quality items have been compromised by the Berlin bombings by mid-1944?
                          I hear what you are saying, but clasps are much more cheaply made then a badge and even in most cases, a tinnie. I do not think that they were made to survive like their heavier cousins. Like awards today- medals are of decent quality while our metal and ribbon attachments are not as well made and are fragile.
                          Looking for documents/items pertaining to Warsaw 1944 Uprising

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Brian R View Post
                            I'm far from a medal and badge expert like most guys on this forum, but I am just baffled by the variation in quality between the Klein piece and the one-piece Juncker pieces. The Klein clasps are very clean and crisp while the Junkers are just downright ugly, comparatively speaking. Even though they are simple, stamped clasps, I would imagine better quality from a company like Juncker. Could their ability to produce quality items have been compromised by the Berlin bombings by mid-1944?
                            Quite not all Juncker pieces are "clean and crisp", actually some of them are just like these honor clasps "downright ugly, comparatively speaking"

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by PaulR View Post
                              I hear what you are saying, but clasps are much more cheaply made then a badge and even in most cases, a tinnie. I do not think that they were made to survive like their heavier cousins. Like awards today- medals are of decent quality while our metal and ribbon attachments are not as well made and are fragile.
                              Good point, Paul. But, the Juncker piece is bad enough that it looks like a cheap fake relative to the Klein piece - and it's this fine thread that made it believable that it is, indeed, legit.
                              sigpicIron Cross Award Documents of World War II - Out Now!

                              info@kleinekillpress.com
                              www.kleinekillpress.com

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Brian R View Post
                                Good point, Paul. But, the Juncker piece is bad enough that it looks like a cheap fake relative to the Klein piece - and it's this fine thread that made it believable that it is, indeed, legit.
                                Hi Brian,

                                I have to disagree. I don't collect clasps and have no vested interest, and in my opinion the construction and quality (or lack thereof) of these clasps is consistent with what I see in Juncker KM badges (and the known original KM clasps of similar construction). But I do agree that Juncker was no paragon of fine quality -- just a highly prolific and dependable supplier.

                                Best regards,
                                ---Norm

                                Comment

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