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Maedicke Krim shield / A good forgery?

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    #16
    I believe this thread of discussion will add a subject of the shields Krim Maediсke a little more
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=988145
    Yours faithfully!
    Yury

    Comment


      #17
      Gentlemen
      I had a closer look at my Maedicke aluminium breast eagle and that too is die cast!
      So Maedicke is no stranger to this technique

      Kind regards Chay
      Attached Files
      Interested in collecting historical objects in a gentlemanly fashion
      100% Christian :)))
      [email protected]

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by upbeek View Post
        Sindri,
        I am discussing this with a family member as i am descended from expert steel workers,
        This metal type is known as pig metal it is an iron full of impurity, this is known as porosity,
        I found a great video online which shows the diecast manufacturing process of die creation and the casting in England on toy cars .
        More datum to follow,
        It looks at the moment these Maedicke Krim were diecast

        Here is one video I found not sure it’s this
        https://youtu.be/d_Yjyy_Rp2A

        There’s this
        https://youtu.be/-DRbgYLhc4Y

        Kind regards Chay
        Hello Gentleman Chay

        I really enjoyed these videos. Not just in connection with this shield in question but just in general. Very enjoyable.

        I think "Injection molding" is the right term. If not, pls correct me.

        This method, Injection molding, was used in the production of awards in the third reich, the most famous ones must be the ISA and ASAs from Assmann.
        (maybe there are more, I dont know).

        I dont come from a string of "expert steel workers" but from Peasants actually haha. But from what I know or understand of Injection molding there should always be a "ausstoss dorne" (dont know that ENG term), a trace there the "metal injector pin or pipe or whatever" leaves behind. Just like on the ISAs and ASAs from Assmann.

        Does your eagle have one?

        Skál
        Sindri

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Stive View Post
          I believe this thread of discussion will add a subject of the shields Krim Maediсke a little more
          http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=988145
          Hi Stive

          I had linked this thread in the opening post already

          Skál!
          Sindri

          Comment


            #20
            Yours faithfully!
            Yury

            Comment


              #21
              I think "Injection molding" is the right term. If not, pls correct me.

              This method, Injection molding, was used in the production of awards in the third reich, the most famous ones must be the ISA and ASAs from Assmann.
              (maybe there are more, I dont know).

              Sindri,
              I was riding along on my penny farthing and I had an idea about the injection moulding as proven with plasticine, and you have to take into consideration that many badges were diecast and do not exhibit this characteristic, more rnesearch needed !
              Oh knowing the iron mixture I’m less brave to take mine apart on account of random nay sayers, so study will be carried out as is!

              Kind regards Chay
              Interested in collecting historical objects in a gentlemanly fashion
              100% Christian :)))
              [email protected]

              Comment


                #22
                Hi Chay

                ......This is a very interesting thread. I think that Injection Molding or Die Casting is usually only found in massive(solid) awards. I do not think the process is used for the thin stamped type of awards such as shields or cap emblems. I have observed that the process used in creating the Assmann awards leaves tell-tale marks associated with the process. I could be mistaken as metallurgy really isn't a field of expertise for me. Hopefully an answer will be forthcoming.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Bruce Simcox View Post
                  ......This is a very interesting thread. I think that Injection Molding or Die Casting is usually only found in massive(solid) awards. I do not think the process is used for the thin stamped type of awards such as shields or cap emblems. I have observed that the process used in creating the Assmann awards leaves tell-tale marks associated with the process. I could be mistaken as metallurgy really isn't a field of expertise for me. Hopefully an answer will be forthcoming.


                  Hi Bruce!
                  Yes it’s fascinating !
                  There’s no rush here ,
                  A lot of study into metal types and badge designs!

                  Also can anyone answer why or how Maedicke made extruded sliders on ze gorget?

                  And I think the aluminium breast eagle needs scrutiny!

                  The Maedicke Krim is entertaining and elusive!

                  Microscopic evidence should be interesting...

                  Kind regards Chay
                  Interested in collecting historical objects in a gentlemanly fashion
                  100% Christian :)))
                  [email protected]

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Let’s first start looking at the material which is suggested “pig metal” or “pig iron”. I am not a metal expert but one of the characteristics of pig metal is the is very brittle and can easily break when bend. IMO not ideal for casting a shield with tabs which have to be bend.

                    As said before the process of casting iron to produce fake shields would IMO be very, very expensive and very unlikely. Especially when considering the rarity of this shield.

                    Now coming to the rarity of the Maedicke shields. As every collector who collects a specific badge, medal, shield, etc. will tell you is that there are types which are common and easy to find and there items which are rare or even very rare to find. How come? I don’t know. What I do know is that late Maedicke shields with tabs are rare. Early Maedicke shields without tabs are even rarer. Was the first die destroyed? Was it damaged? I don’t know. Was the first die destroyed and the badges of the second die stocked and never distributed (and some later found as the Breslau find)? I don’t know.
                    What I do know is that as a rule one can say that fake items are never rare.

                    This will bring us to the two types of Maedicke shields.
                    Sindri made excellent comparing pictures of the Maedicke shield with tabs with another 100% original shield. I think it would be even better even if the Maedicke shield with side tabs was compared with the early Maedicke shield without side tabs. I’ll post some close ups of the early Maedicke shield without side tabs. Here you can clearly see the sheared edges.
                    Attached Files

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                      #25
                      Now let’s compare both shields for weight and thickness.
                      The thickness of both shields is almost the same and the weight of the Maedicke shield with the side tabs is even less than the early shield.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Pascal H.; 04-02-2019, 05:05 AM.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Both shields are clearly marked with the Maedicke makers mark and are clearly made by the same firm. Small differences however indicate that two different dies were used.

                        It is suggested that the late Maedicke shield is a fake. In that case the fakers had and early Maedicke shield, which they used as a model for making made a new mold. Instead they could have used the original early type to make a mold. After going throw the intensive process of making a new mold they choose the very expensive process of casting this shield in iron instead of die stamping.

                        Taking all of this into consideration, I think it is very hard to believe that the Maedicke shield with side tabs is a iron cast fake shield.

                        Kr
                        Pascal

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Pascal,
                          Thank you for this evidence!

                          Kind regards Chay
                          Interested in collecting historical objects in a gentlemanly fashion
                          100% Christian :)))
                          [email protected]

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Hi Pascal, thanks for the reply.

                            First off, very nice pictures of the Maedicke with prongs.

                            We can agree on that, the Maedicke with Taps its not Pig Iron for sure.

                            The weight I agree with you also but not the thickness.
                            That you can clearly see on the pictures, even on your smallish ones, that the Maedicke with tabs is much (unusually thick) thicker than the other one.
                            Not sure whats going on with the measuring tool
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Pascal H. View Post
                              It is suggested that the late Maedicke shield is a fake. In that case the fakers had and early Maedicke shield, which they used as a model for making made a new mold. Instead they could have used the original early type to make a mold. After going throw the intensive process of making a new mold they choose the very expensive process of casting this shield in iron instead of die stamping.
                              Well no, the total opposite actually.
                              Its much cheaper for a faker to cast items in a mold than to dye-strike them.
                              You would have the striking machine, run endless test runs on material, thickness, strike force, you would need to have exact dyes, made by a master tool/dye maker, you would need the have a shearing tool, witch it very hard to make ect ect ..

                              But making molds is not hard, you press the shield into a medium, can be sand, plaster, rubber whatever.. you can even make them on your computer like I said before. Its easy, its cheap.
                              Its the way of a faker.

                              With a mass produced item like the Krim shields, a medal maker with a order to fill would never ever cast the items in a mold, there we agree. (injection molding was done as earlier discussed, but thats a completely different method). Its just not the right way to make a mass produced award. It would take forever, you would have needed so many molds, wait for the cooling, the afterwork ect..
                              But with striking its very fast, a few seconds for each shield.
                              If you would go to a medal maker in Belgium and ask for 10.000 molded shields for a towns fest or whatever, they would laugh at you.

                              And exactly there lies the problem with the Maedicke with taps.
                              Its not struck, but casted in a mold! Then how can it be original?

                              Comment


                                #30
                                IMO speculations about the amounts on the marked, the benefit for the fakers, hoardfinds in Berslau and so forth cant determine a Krim shield as a good or bad one.
                                These are just speculations, and why speculate when you have the item?

                                One should always start at the item itself.
                                How its made, the items tell us what they are, no need for the other.

                                If its dye-struck...
                                I would say its original, case closed, (at least for me) I would be happy as I own one myself

                                If not dye-struck...
                                Then one can start the debate how its was casted, what medium and material. After that the debate on by whom, a faker? Maedicke? a subcontractor? ect Whats the profit, are fakes always in large amounts or not.. ect..

                                But first we focus on the item, then speculations.

                                Originally posted by Pascal H. View Post
                                Taking all of this into consideration, I think it is very hard to believe that the Maedicke shield with side tabs is a iron cast fake shield.
                                You dont think its cast fake, so then you think its a genuine dye-struck shield I take it?

                                But then you have to explain, how it can be dye-struck?
                                Can you explain that...

                                If its struck and sheared, why is there no sheared edge? (pic1)
                                If its struck, how can there be casting traces on the edges, roads ect.. (pic1 and pref pics)
                                If its struck and sheared, why does the material on the head (and on the corners) not reach all the way down? (pic2)
                                If its struck, how can the Lettering not be showing properly on the reverse, remember, these are made from 2 exactly the same dyes. (pic3,4)
                                If its struck and sheared, how can it be so thick, and why are the tabs the same thickness as the edge? (pic 5,6,7)

                                What can you see on the shield that makes it dye-struck and rules out all the above?

                                Skál from Iceland!
                                Sindri
                                Attached Files

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