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    Cupal Cholm

    Hi guys

    I have never owned such a shield until now. This came from an old Belgian collection of which the owner unfortunately passed away recently.

    What's the verdict of the cupal Cholm shield?

    Giel
    Attached Files
    Kind regards,
    Giel


    Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

    #2
    Some collectors think the so called "type 3" Cholm is questionable due to some raised bumps presents on all them, I personally find it extremely nice and IMO it could be original. CupAl construction and the way it is made are matching with originals.
    Anyway I think it would be an endless discussion until some real solid proofs will surface.

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      #3
      I completely agree with Antonio. I have always regarded these shields as wartime pieces. I've got endless discussions about this piece and until someone can proof me wrong I will regard this shield as original.

      However I don't think this shield was intended to be worn. I rather think this was a shield made from the original dies used for example a photograph album or something similar.

      Kr
      Pascal

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        #4
        I've never liked this type but that's just a personal opinion. Always happy to be proved wrong

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          #5
          Thanks guys.

          Is there any link that can be made towards Deumer, S&L, Rettenmaier? It came from a collection is which 90% of the original pieces were stock items from these companies.
          Kind regards,
          Giel


          Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

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            #6
            Originally posted by Giel VW View Post
            Thanks guys.

            Is there any link that can be made towards Deumer, S&L, Rettenmaier? It came from a collection is which 90% of the original pieces were stock items from these companies.
            Not to my knowledge but this could become very interesting.

            Kr
            Pascal

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              #7
              Originally posted by Pascal H. View Post
              Not to my knowledge but this could become very interesting.

              Kr
              Pascal
              I have no more info unfortunately but it's worth to keep in mind.

              Actually I just thought of it, but on the order form of Rettemaier there was a Cholm shield too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
              Attached Files
              Kind regards,
              Giel


              Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

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                #8
                Is there any other shield that has similar prongs?
                Kind regards,
                Giel


                Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Giel VW View Post
                  Is there any other shield that has similar prongs?
                  Yes, a Demjansk has similar prongs.

                  Kr
                  Pascal
                  Attached Files

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Pascal H. View Post
                    Yes, a Demjansk has similar prongs.

                    Kr
                    Pascal
                    And also on the list
                    Kind regards,
                    Giel


                    Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Postwar crapola IMO

                      As to being on the Rettenmaier list, the Kuban, Krim & Narvik are also on the list, and these have never been found with these type of prongs, so I seriously doubt this type of shield was made by Rettenmaier.

                      Tom
                      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
                        Postwar crapola IMO

                        As to being on the Rettenmaier list, the Kuban, Krim & Narvik are also on the list, and these have never been found with these type of prongs, so I seriously doubt this type of shield was made by Rettenmaier.

                        Tom
                        Hi Tom

                        I'm not talking out of a dealer position here. I found this shield as part from a collection here in Belgium and I know for sure that it was bought long before we started giving value to a Cholm shield! Based on what are you saying this is crapola? I have the shield in hand and all I can say they are exceptionally well build!

                        What kind of shield would Rettenmaier have sold in your opinion?

                        I really think that these shields were made by one of these three producers, whether it was wartime or postwar I don't know.
                        Kind regards,
                        Giel


                        Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

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                          #13
                          Hi Giel,

                          By crapola, I mean postwar.

                          The surface of the Cholms in particular are really rough, so I don't feel they are as well build as you say. And the prongs just give me the sense of postwar. I don't have evidence to base that on, just a gut feeling, especially compared to the true, proven wartime shields.

                          The Demjansk on the other hand looks nicer made IMO, but the prongs certainly link the two shields to a common producer.

                          I think if Rettenmaier made them, we would see more of them around. Rettenmaier IABs, GABs, kriegs badges, etc. are all pretty common and are often in minty condition, meaning that lots survived the war and were taken from store rooms, retail shops, etc. I would tend to think the same would be true of these shields, and some would be found in the hoard finds that have turned up. Also the fact that we should also find some Kuban, Krim and Narviks too because all shields are listed on the Rettenmaier catalog.

                          There is the possibility that Rettenameir made some of the other, unmarked shields out there that aren't tied to a maker yet. Another possibility is that Rettenmaier bought shields from another maker, and then sold them retail and that is why they are listed.

                          CCCs are also listed, but I doubt Rettenmaier made CCCs themselves. Rather, I personally suspect that Rettenmaier bought CCCs from Deschler and then sold them retail.

                          Tom
                          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi Giel,

                            Interesting posting.

                            As has been mentioned previously, these types of Cholm Shields (referred to as the Type 3) have been debated on here for many years in many different threads. Consensus by many (who believe them to be pre May 45 production) was that they were for mounting on photo album covers. To my knowledge only one has been found on Heer cloth backing. I posted that one years ago for a friend. That particular piece came from a well known US dealer. And before anyone says that who it comes from does not prove anything; all I am stating are the facts I have at hand for this particular piece.

                            Look forward to any info that becomes available on these.

                            Gary B
                            ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Red

                              Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
                              Hi Giel,

                              By crapola, I mean postwar.

                              The surface of the Cholms in particular are really rough, so I don't feel they are as well build as you say. And the prongs just give me the sense of postwar. I don't have evidence to base that on, just a gut feeling, especially compared to the true, proven wartime shields.

                              There are so many awards with rough surfaces, they are clearly different from iron shields I agree, but this can not be an argument. The eagle's head is hair sharp and might be even better looking than the iron shields

                              The Demjansk on the other hand looks nicer made IMO, but the prongs certainly link the two shields to a common producer.

                              This is a tombac shield and can not directly be compared imo, but again I agree it was the same producer.

                              I think if Rettenmaier made them, we would see more of them around.

                              There are plenty around

                              Rettenmaier IABs, GABs, kriegs badges, etc. are all pretty common and are often in minty condition, meaning that lots survived the war and were taken from store rooms, retail shops, etc.

                              I know from a local source in Schwäbisch-Gmünd that when this village was overrun by the Allies, the complete stock from the company was thrown out of the windows... this is the reason that many of these awards were found in mint condition because people grabbed them from the street. The reason why there are much less Cholm shields than other combat awards is clearly because the demand was extremely small for them

                              I would tend to think the same would be true of these shields, and some would be found in the hoard finds that have turned up.

                              I have found 2 Rettenmaier hoard and indeed none of them contained this shield

                              Also the fact that we should also find some Kuban, Krim and Narviks too because all shields are listed on the Rettenmaier catalog.

                              There is the possibility that Rettenameir made some of the other, unmarked shields out there that aren't tied to a maker yet. Another possibility is that Rettenmaier bought shields from another maker, and then sold them retail and that is why they are listed.

                              CCCs are also listed, but I doubt Rettenmaier made CCCs themselves. Rather, I personally suspect that Rettenmaier bought CCCs from Deschler and then sold them retail.

                              Interesting! Why the Deschler connection?

                              Tom
                              Kind regards,
                              Giel


                              Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

                              Comment

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