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The METZ 1944 Cuff Title

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  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Actually we have some pictures of the Metz CT in wear... Not only one. I spoke about the one I have.
    And we have known original different patterns linked to directly veteran acquisitions (about this: do you think we have period pictures for all the different types and makers of badges and other awards? I'm sorry, bu the answer is no, we haven't. I could list tens and tens of examples).

    Another point: regulation is written black on white.
    And one "Kampfabzeichen" registered in a personal document is enough to dismiss the statement that the CT was only a traditional cufftitle. This is the truth, these are facts, evidences.
    Its rarity is due to the late institution, if an item is very, very rare, a document of that item is almost impossible to find. But when it surfaces, then you have your answer.
    I know of 3 documents, and one of them is a "battle award"; if math is not an opinion, it means 33,3% of the documents report the Metz CT was a battle award. Really not a bad %.

    But if you prefere to think that it was only a traditional cufftitle and remove some real proofs, like criteria, entries, etc etc, I have nothing more to add.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jochen1000
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
    Many of the school students played a big role in Metz defence, so they were awarded for their fighting.
    I think the correct term should be: Many of the school students played a big role in Metz defence, so they should have been awarded for their fighting - but for some reason they were not.
    The fact that an expert like you remembers one entry in a soldbuch and has one picture of an officer wearing the cufftitle sais it all.

    Anyway, who knows the absolute truth? And let's see how many different versions of that cufftitle will eventually be considered original, keeping in mind that even someone like you has just one single foto of an officer wearing one (which would basically verify the existence of one version).

    Leave a comment:


  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Many of the school students played a big role in Metz defence, so they were awarded for their fighting.
    All the awards must pass through von Siegroth, that was awarded with the Knight's Cross on 18 October 1944 as commander of the Kampfgruppe of the Fahnenjunker-Schule VI of Metz, its cufftitle was a "Kampfabzeichen" not "Traditionsabzeichen", and I also remember an entry in the Soldbuch of a soldier exactly as "Kampfabzeichen" (battle award).
    I also have a picture of an officer wearing the CT, but he had nothing in common with the Schule.
    Cufftitles are extremely rare, documents are almost impossible to find nowadays.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jochen1000
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

    The "Metz 1944" was a combat award and also a traditional decoration. This is written in the original decree.
    Furthermore there are pictures showing soldiers wearing that CT also out of the school exactly as they wore Afrika and Kreta cufftitles. Of couse many wore it as a traditional cufftitle.
    So if I understand this right then you are also saying that it was worn as a traditional cufftitle at the school and there are some pictures of soldiers wearing it outside of the school (but possibly still connected to the school). But there seem to be no award documents to participants of the actual combat and also no legitimate soldbuch/wehrpass entries? At least I haven't seen any in all those years, which I find weird considering that they were so proud of their small victory at Metz. Have you seen any of those?

    Leave a comment:


  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Originally posted by Jochen1000 View Post
    Also interesting, however, is the question if members of that school were virtually the only soldiers who ever wore that cufftitle. [...]
    If I were a collector of cufftitles, I would keep in mind the possibility that the school was virtually the only place where those cufftitles were
    ever used.
    The "Metz 1944" was a combat award and also a traditional decoration. This is written in the original decree.
    Furthermore there are pictures showing soldiers wearing that CT also out of the school exactly as they wore Afrika and Kreta cufftitles. Of couse many wore it as a traditional cufftitle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyle Harrington
    replied
    Additional photo Metz Soldbuch

    Metz
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Jochen1000
    replied
    Hi, I have a copy. Should I look up something?
    BR


    Originally posted by Lothringer1944 View Post
    Hello,

    A document of the Fahnenjunkerschule VI from Metz.
    To the american from WAF, do you have an access to this document : ?

    https://www.loc.gov/manuscripts/?all...t:metz&st=list

    Thanks in advance

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • Lothringer1944
    replied
    Hello,

    A document of the Fahnenjunkerschule VI from Metz.
    To the american from WAF, do you have an access to this document : ?

    https://www.loc.gov/manuscripts/?all...t:metz&st=list

    Thanks in advance

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyle Harrington
    replied
    Fascinating stuff gents

    Edward sterling stuff and thank you for clarifying the confusion, really important for further research into this area which is still worthy of more study.It is difficult to envisage the NCO/Officer cadets not fighting in the precarious position which faced the defenders, or I may well be wrong? Nonetheless all comments have been greatly appreciated on this thread may many more contributions ensue.

    Thanks Kyle

    Leave a comment:


  • schoenwurf
    replied
    Salut,
    To me it definitely looks like a reproduction
    Even if it would have been made for a vet (which I doubt) it’s not original...

    Leave a comment:


  • Lothringer1944
    replied
    The METZ 1944 Cuff Title

    Hello all,

    What do you think about this one (friends owner). It doesn't look like an original, but it doesn't look like a bad reproduction...

    Maybe a cufftitle for vet ?


    94568606_861694790995928_4365024474660077568_n.jpg

    94488507_226761435404441_8521452506696384512_n.jpg

    94487684_2704587676439871_4458459727247966208_n.jpg

    94702523_2962011093890861_5456067547914829824_n.jpg

    94341818_237033450866573_289897330268700672_n.jpg

    Thanks in advance

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • Jochen1000
    replied
    Paper

    This is a very interesting topic. I saw the soldbuch and the little piece of paper in post 92. What Edward and glaser say is correct,
    members of the school were entitled to wear the cufftitle, even though they were usually not involved in the fighting around Metz.

    Also interesting, however, is the question if members of that school were virtually the only soldiers who ever wore that cufftitle. I have so
    far seen two soldbücher to candidates who were with school VI during the fighting, neither had a cufftitle entry. I have two soldbücher for normal
    soldiers with combat days near Metz (Machern), neither has a cufftitle entered. I have several soldbücher to members of replacement units who were
    *probably* there during the fighting, none had an entry. Possibly some were captured before they could have been awarded the cufftitle, but others
    were not and there would have been enough time for the entry. Still it did not happen. Has anyone actually ever seen an unquestionable award
    entry for a member of the actual fighting force in Metz? I can't remember, and I am looking for one for a long time.

    Fake award entries for the cufftitle are relatively common. Example: post 20 (stamps and signatures are correct, award entries are faked). I attach
    a picture of another fake of that typ - probably even made by the same guy.

    If I were a collector of cufftitles, I would keep in mind the possibility that the school was virtually the only place where those cufftitles were
    ever used. And in that case, I would expect someone would have ordered a batch from one supplier, and the delivery would have consisted of CT which
    all look the same. But I don't know how ordering processes for these things were then.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • glaser
    replied
    I think I understand the logic now: for some reason, those who attended this school (as a teacher of a student?) were permitted to wear this cufftitle as a member of the school and thus not because they earned it personally, that is why they have to remove the CT when they leave the school again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward
    replied
    Originally posted by pauke View Post
    Seems a little odd to me that there is no date listed as to when the "right to wear" note was issued or is this on part of the paper we can't see here?
    Have only seen two school examples in passbooks. Neither were dated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward
    replied
    Slip of paper looks legitimate. Auction description is incorrect. From the auction, “signed in pencil by the commander of staff of the 462 ID.” The document was signed by the Major u. Inspk. Chef Schule VI für Fahnenjunker der Infanterie. The stamp was partially cut off at the bottom. From other entries in the Soldbuch it is connected to the schools 10. Inspektion. Which was also the command held by the Major who signed the doc. Likely the last school class before the war ended.

    Worn also by both staff and students while assigned to the school. Once reassigned the armelband was to be removed from the uniform.

    Leave a comment:

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