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  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
    Tim,

    You and I have been good friends long enough to be able to disagree and remain close friends. Thses things are just trinkets, friendship is of true value.

    Bob Hritz
    I fully agree.

    Tim, your way of thinking is correct, but IMHO it is missed of some details.
    1) some items are so rare that only few collectors know them. Sometimes posting one of them means make long discussions and waste a lot of time only because some people say "it is not textbook" (when they don't know why a textbook piece is really textbook).
    I could write tens examples of pieces never posted on forum, and in my upcoming book about the Bandenkampfabzeichen you will see at least 3 or 4 of them. An example? Look for a BKA with the black sword and you'll find nothing...
    But I could go on and on, in each field from awards to the SS.
    2) some rare items are often not showed to avoid fakers have new starting points.

    About the spirit of the forum Tim let me say I know it very well, every day since years I spend my time to help all the collectors I can, here, via email and on other places. If I did not believe in the spirit of the forum, then I would not be here.

    PS: you probably don't recognize that all the CTs you posted on posts 5-6-7-8-13... are exactly the same pattern of the one I posted and of the one for sale that someone believe not real.
    You can find this pattern with or without back white orizontal stitching, but this pattern is the most easy to recognize due to its characteristics.
    This pattern is the Junction ring between what I think to be the 2 "early" and the 2 late.
    Hope this help Tim!
    Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 03-20-2015, 04:59 AM.

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  • Bob Hritz
    replied
    Tim,

    You and I have been good friends long enough to be able to disagree and remain close friends. Thses things are just trinkets, friendship is of true value.

    Bob Hritz

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    I am most certainly going to contact Mr. Demel by phone and assure him that I have not and nor have I had any intention of bad mouthing his CT.
    It is obvious that a person must be happy with all aspects of a purchase.
    I did what any rational person would do. I did as much research on it as possible. If you'll remember, I showed you a Kriegsmarine Officers Visor Hat at the SoS that I had bought. Alas, I did not do my homework on it and I had to return it.
    I realized, at that time, that I had fallen victim of my own stupidity in rushing a purchase. I resolved to be more circumspect in my ways and take my time.
    You know of the myriad reasons that have prompted me to put off the purchase of this particular item. I appreciated your help and I am hopeful that you will not harbor hard feelings and ill will towards me because of what may well be excessive caution.
    I've looked and looked at everything I can find on the METZ CT and I would hope to have make the next person's search easier by doing this thread.
    I do not think that Mr. Demel is going to have a very hard time selling it. He sent me an email, telling me that he had bought it in a flea market in Munich many years ago. An accompanying(?) WEHRPASS was stolen from the vendor shortly before he bought it. Between seeing the front of Antonio's and seeing the front and back, in detail, of Indycollector's, I won't be the least bit surpised to see it sell in the next week.
    The only thing that may forestall it's sale is it's price. I know you get tired of hearing this, but in today's rarefied economy, people are more then cautious with their money.
    Gotta' go. Wanna' make a phone call.
    Tim

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  • Bob Hritz
    replied
    Well, Antonio's Metz1944 is original in my opinion. In 50 years, I have handled 4 of them. One helped me get my camo SS M-43 cap, with colored insignia. It went to a long time collector who specializes in insignia.

    Another was gotten for a collector friend, and one for my own collection. All of them had the same traits with one exception. Two of them had the cutting lines and two did not. Since one row of cutting lines woukd separate the titles, every other cuff title would have the cutting guide lines. The pattern of letters, wool material, and border material was identical.

    Keeping track of items, in others' collections, for 50 years, makes it a bit easier to see what I am studying. I have seen variations of low production items as well as those of great quantity production. A good example is the SA (not the military) Feldherrnhalle cuff title. There are five different types with variations of border material, color and thread of band material, punch card pattern for Jacquard weaving machine, most easily seen from the reverse design. The SA Feldherrnhalle was a relatively small unit, but had huge varations in cuff titles. The Kurland cuff title has several weave and thread patterns, but production was very small.

    I don't know what to tell anyone looking for a piece of insignia. I just do my research and listen to those who have the most experience. But I do encourage every collectir to study and learn. No one should acquire an item that does not instill confidence in authenticity withing their collecting perameters.

    Tim, I certainly would not have pointed out the cuff title to you if I did not have full confidence of authenticity. If the price was more favorable to me, I would buy it myself to keep for the future. I had made an offer to buy it, previously, and your bad mouthing of it may ultimately make it available to me for my offer.

    Bob Hritz

    Bob Hritz

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  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
    Tim, there are some pieces you'll probably never see on forums.
    Do you want to know the reason? Because if someone post these pieces, there sill be probably some inexperienced collector who will dismiss them because they are not "textbook".
    But "textbook" in the case of the Metz CT seems it means "the most acclamed".

    I suggest you another thread, in which you can see a CT you consider "not textbook" blessed from some of the most experienced collectors...
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=752701
    So, what you are saying is that if someone has a really great item, he should not show it on the WAF, because an inexperienced person will say "I don't like it. Because I don't like it, it isn't real?"!
    Really!??!! That's the basis for your argument?
    I am sorry, but that is just so much nonsense. You are intimating that you, or another person , would be afraid that a newbie is going to diss something and then you'd feel bad and think it wasn't real? Ridiculous. Ridiculous in the extreme.
    I just dealt with a person like that. He has an item for sale on the E-Stand. I asked an innocent question about it on a discussion forum and sent him a PM so that he was aware of it. He went bonkers, completely bonkers. He said I was trying to discredit his item. After an exchange of 6 or 7 posts, he finally said, "Well, you didn't try to discredit it, but someone could say it is bad if it's discussed." There are(!) people like that out there, but it is faulty thinking and it just doesn't fly. Excuse me, but I don't think we will learn anything if we live in fear that someone might say something is bad. I have posted things that I thought were bad that were good. I have posted things that I thought were good that were bad. Either way, I learned something in the process.

    When the first METZ 1944 cuff title showed up on the Forum, did that person think that it might be called a fake? Maybe. But he went ahead and showed it. If you say that the next one was shown because it was similar to the first, I don't buy it. Some of the things have been shown on the WAF were silly looking, crude and obvious reproductions. They were still shown.

    As far as the thread where you show your METZ CT for the first time, I wouldn't say that it was "blessed". I saw people congratulating you. I didn't see any new collector say "That's a fake." I also didn't see the back of that cuff title and you put a post up saying "Send me a PM and I will show you." Why wouldn't you show the back of the CT if you are so sure that people were blessing it?

    The whole purpose of this thread was to show everything that has been posted so as to give people that are looking at a CT something to compare it to. You say that I shouldn't say textbook in regards to the CT that has the four characteristics
    that are common to it. OK, I won't . But for the sake of Heaven above, we're here to learn, to help each other. I consider paying my $25 a year a privilege. I get to talk to people, I get to learn things, I get to exchange views with people all over the world. I get to see real items that help me when I go to military shows.

    Show your cuff titles, front and back. If someone says something bad about them, we'll debate and discuss those points. Discussion bears fruit. Then other people will show theirs and we will see so many of the type that you are holding that I'll have to "eat crow" and say "Antonio, there are so many of those cuff titles that are similar to yours, I guess we'll have to call them textbook and the ones that I have seen on the WAF up to this point are a variant!"

    We're here to learn, we're here to help each other. This is the spirit , the true spirit of the WAF!
    Most respectfully,
    Tim Alexander

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  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post
    ...We've had the Internet for 25 years, more or less. The world has shrunken down and people talk to each other and trade photos all over the world in a heartbeat. Where are these other variations? Why don't we see them?
    Tim, there are some pieces you'll probably never see on forums.
    Do you want to know the reason? Because if someone post these pieces, there sill be probably some inexperienced collector who will dismiss them because they are not "textbook".
    But "textbook" in the case of the Metz CT seems it means "the most acclamed".

    I suggest you another thread, in which you can see a CT you consider "not textbook" blessed from some of the most experienced collectors...
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=752701

    Leave a comment:


  • Indycollector
    replied
    All:
    I took my Metz Cufftitle to the SOS a couple of weeks ago. Showed it to some big name dealers. Even some of them indicated they had never handled/ observed one of these before. Some said it was original, others did not know or would not offer an opinion. Some indicated that even within their staff there was dissent regarding these. Think these are so rare there are very few to compare against. Most likely Antonio and Bob have handled and seen more of these than almost anybody else, with this in mind value their opinion/experience greatly.

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  • Indycollector
    replied
    TP- Per your request a photo of the reverse, also included a photo of one of the ends.
    Attached Files

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  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
    Tim, can you show us why we should believe some are textbook some others not?
    It seems to me what happend with the Memel medals some years ago: one was textbook (?) And all the rest not. Today we know 11 different manufactures.
    Antonio,
    Perhaps I use the incorrect phraseology. When ten or eleven of the cuff titles that one sees on WAF threads all exhibit the same four characteristics, I think anyone in my position might call them "textbook".
    I also understand what you are saying about different makers being discovered. It has been 70 years since the METZ title came out. Where are these different makers? We've had the Internet for 25 years, more or less. The world has shrunken down and people talk to each other and trade photos all over the world in a heartbeat. Where are these other variations? Why don't we see them?
    Please, show your other cuff titles! Don't make us wait till next year when the book comes out. I am anxious to be proven wrong in my assumptions and I am sure everyone else would be thrilled to see another variation turn out in large numbers. I believe you said that you got four of them at one time. Do you still have them or do you have pictures of them that you could post?
    If you look at the last post that I made, I believe that you will see that Indycollector has the same type of cuff title that Paul Demel kindly shared images of with us. Am I correct in that or is that yet another possible variation?
    If it will help, I will say that I have seen a large number of one type of variation of the METZ 1944 cuff title. I am not trying to give the cuff title that we have seen the most of, any kind of cachet, simply because it is the most viewed on the WAF!
    I have no dog in this contest, not being the owner of any of the different types that you advocate as being real.
    I'm Mr. Cooperation here, believe me. I am just a poor grasshopper, seeking knowledge in the forest!
    Thanx,
    Tim
    Last edited by TP Alexander; 03-18-2015, 08:53 PM.

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  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Tim, can you show us why we should believe some are textbook some others not?
    It seems to me what happend with the Memel medals some years ago: one was textbook (?) And all the rest not. Today we know 11 different manufactures.

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Date:
    03-14-2015
    Thread:
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=791970
    Started by:
    TP Alexander
    Photo Attribution:
    Indycollector (Photos of his variation METZ 1944 CT)
    Caption:
    Here is the link to the METZ 1944 CT that is for sale.

    Judgment:
    I had made the statement in the thread that it was not 'textbook'. That doesn't make it a repro. I admit that I lack the background and knowledge to make an educated judgment here. Both Antonio Scapini and Bob Hritz attest to it's originality and further state that they would be happy to have it in their collection. Since all of the CT's that were seen on the WAF were of the variety that showed the four characteristics mentioned in an earlier post, I could not say authoritatively one way or the other. Mr. Scapini speaks of two other variations that I did not have access to, here on the WAF threads. He asserts that Robert Demel's CT is one of them..........
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Date:
    03-14-2015
    Thread:
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=791970
    Started by:
    TP Alexander
    Photo Attribution:
    Fred Green (Shot of unknown dealer case at 2015 SoS)
    Caption:
    Here is the link to the METZ 1944 CT that is for sale.

    Judgment:
    I had made the statement in the thread that it was not 'textbook'. That doesn't make it a repro. I admit that I lack the background and knowledge to make an educated judgment here. Both Antonio Scapini and Bob Hritz attest to it's originality and further state that they would be happy to have it in their collection. Since all of the CT's that were seen on the WAF were of the variety that showed the four characteristics mentioned in an earlier post, I could not say authoritatively one way or the other. Mr. Scapini speaks of two other variations that I did not have access to, here on the WAF threads. He asserts that Robert Demel's CT is one of them.....
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Date:
    03-14-2015
    Thread:
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=791970
    Started by:
    TP Alexander
    Photo Attribution:
    Spencer (The cuff title in wear.)
    Caption:
    Here is the link to the METZ 1944 CT that is for sale.

    Judgment:
    I had made the statement in the thread that it was not 'textbook'. That doesn't make it a repro. I admit that I lack the background and knowledge to make an educated judgment here. Both Antonio Scapini and Bob Hritz attest to it's originality and further state that they would be happy to have it in their collection. Since all of the CT's that were seen on the WAF were of the variety that showed the four characteristics mentioned in an earlier post, I could not say authoritatively one way or the other. Mr. Scapini speaks of two other variations that I did not have access to, here on the WAF threads. He asserts that Robert Demel's CT is one of them....
    Attached Files
    Last edited by TP Alexander; 03-18-2015, 06:51 PM.

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  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Date:
    03-14-2015
    Thread:
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=791970
    Started by:
    TP Alexander
    Photo Attribution:
    Antonio Scapini & Bob Hritz
    Caption:
    Here is the link to the METZ 1944 CT that is for sale.

    Judgment:
    I had made the statement in the thread that it was not 'textbook'. That doesn't make it a repro. I admit that I lack the background and knowledge to make an educated judgment here. Both Antonio Scapini and Bob Hritz attest to it's originality and further state that they would be happy to have it in their collection. Since all of the CT's that were seen on the WAF were of the variety that showed the four characteristics mentioned in an earlier post, I could not say authoritatively one way or the other. Mr. Scapini speaks of two other variations that I did not have access to, here on the WAF threads. He asserts that Robert Demel's CT is one of them..
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Date:
    03-14-2015
    Thread:
    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=791970
    Started by:
    TP Alexander
    Photo Attribution:
    Robert Demel-Owner of Antiques, Arms & Armor
    Caption:
    Here is the link to the METZ 1944 CT that is for sale.

    Judgment:
    I had made the statement in the thread that it was not 'textbook'. That doesn't make it a repro. I admit that I lack the background and knowledge to make an educated judgment here. Both Antonio Scapini and Bob Hritz attest to it's originality and further state that they would be happy to have it in their collection. Since all of the CT's that were seen on the WAF were of the variety that showed the four characteristics mentioned in an earlier post, I could not say authoritatively one way or the other. Mr. Scapini speaks of two other variations that I did not have access to, here on the WAF threads. He asserts that Robert Demel's CT is one of them.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:

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