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The METZ 1944 Cuff Title

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  • TP Alexander
    replied
    I received the METZ 1944 cuff title today.
    Here are pics for others for future reference.

    Tim
    Attached Files

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  • hucks216
    replied
    Originally posted by M44 Breadbag View Post
    ....
    Fake entry perhaps, though I would need more than one opinion.
    What award entries are listed on Page 22? That page must be full of entries for them to of used the Security Check page to enter awards there. But I'm with Ian on this, those awards are faked entries. There is a similarly faked example on Weitze.

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Small 59 page booklet coming out on four different cuff titles. The METZ, KURLAND, AFRIKA, KRETA.

    http://bdpublish.com/epages/4d7f6574...ts%2FOB-BR-002

    Thanx to Fred Green for getting the info to me.
    Tim

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian Jewison
    replied
    Fine, post it in the Soldbuch forum....see what replies you get there

    Leave a comment:


  • M44 Breadbag
    replied
    Originally posted by Ian Jewison View Post
    The answer to that is simple....it's a fake entry. All awards are entered against legitimate security checks on the Soldbuch.
    If you look, all true entries are in one colour with the awards in another!

    29.1.1943 Security check from Verpflegungs Amt 704. His personnel number (Kriegststammrollennummer - Kr.St.Nr.) was 4......

    If you notice all entries are with Kr.St.Nr.....signifying this is a security check not an award entry!

    This is typical of all the fakes with the Metz 1944 entry it is a hand stamp and made against an existing security check.

    /Ian
    Perhaps you are correct, however if you look close the Kr. St. Nr. Is reflected what I think reads as Kr. St. R. i.V., what that translates to I don't know. Regarding the differant color inks used, the two earlier awrds are dated 43, while the third has no date, perhaps the good officer did not use the same fountain pen again in Sep 44.
    I picked this up along with a few other documents to the same man back in Feb 02 at a flea market in Germany (true story) I paid 25 Euro, I didn't notice the Metz entry until I got home. And I don't think the guy that sold it to me.
    Fake entry perhaps, though I would need more than one opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian Jewison
    replied
    Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post
    PS-BTW, got any real entries that you could show me? I would love to see a real one!
    I have Soldbücher and Wehrpässe to guys that definately fought at Metz but unfortunately none have the cuff title entered.....it is one of those awards that I do not have.

    /Ian

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  • TP Alexander
    replied
    Originally posted by Ian Jewison View Post
    Incidentally what unit was he supposed to be with at Metz? Aufklärungs Abteilung 104 was certainly not there.
    Sending a PM to M44 Breadbag
    I'll see if he can give more info on what he has.
    Thanx,
    Tim

    PS-BTW, got any real entries that you could show me? I would love to see a real one!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian Jewison
    replied
    Incidentally what unit was he supposed to be with at Metz? Aufklärungs Abteilung 104 was certainly not there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian Jewison
    replied
    Originally posted by TP Alexander View Post
    I do not understand the award date of 1 Sept. 1944, since the inception of the award, according to Scott Pritchett, is 28 December, 1944.
    The answer to that is simple....it's a fake entry. All awards are entered against legitimate security checks on the Soldbuch.
    If you look, all true entries are in one colour with the awards in another!

    29.1.1943 Security check from Verpflegungs Amt 704. His personnel number (Kriegststammrollennummer - Kr.St.Nr.) was 4......

    If you notice all entries are with Kr.St.Nr.....signifying this is a security check not an award entry!

    This is typical of all the fakes with the Metz 1944 entry it is a hand stamp and made against an existing security check.

    /Ian

    Leave a comment:


  • FrenchVolunteer
    replied
    Hi,

    Type 2, Lot 4127, HH 63, October 29, 2011.
    Courtesy of Hermann Historica.




    See You

    Vince

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  • FrenchVolunteer
    replied
    Hi,

    Type 2, Lot 6405, HH 70, May 11, 2015.
    Courtesy of Hermann Historica.





    See You

    Vince

    Leave a comment:


  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Thanks Tim for your kind words.
    I'm very happy you can be (as you told me) a guardian of a rare piece of history.

    Just to close this thread I post here the three dirrent patterns of cufftitles I found as original due to their unquestionable provenance.
    2 of them are showed here on WAF in various occasions, another was (as far as I know) never posted.

    What I call the first pattern is the most rare. Probably was really the first made, but who knows?
    The third pattern is the less accurated, and this let me think about a very late production made to cover the request for both the awards giving and the LDO shops (Metz was instituted as award and as the other campaign cufftitles a soldier with regular criteria could buy it showing the proper documents).
    Is it also possible that 2 or 3 different firms were involved in production of this cufftitle, but until today we can only speculate about this.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    In the United States, in the mid-1980's, there was no Internet. There was Manions. They still had a sterling reputation and you could find many wonderful things there. There was also DER GAULEITER, a small trade magazine edited and published by Bob Treend. These were the sole nationwide publications for militaria collectors. At that time, I had a three piece group from the REICHSAUTOZUG DEUTSCHLAND. It had originally been owned by Ron Fink, a militaria shop owner in Calumet City, Illinois. He had shown it to John Angolia. Mr. Angolia made very little of it, stating that it was nothing more then the the trappings of a German motorcar competition club. Jill Halcomb did little more with it, saying that it had to do with transportation for the SA. I did some investigation and research and came up with a theory and supposition, making much more of the RAZD, then had been thought previous to this. I used the Organisationsbuch NSDAP and after getting whatever information I could, I felt that I knew much more about it then Angolia or Halcomb did, combined. I wrote an article for DER GAULEITER and Mr. Treend, approving of it, published it. I got letters and comments from people and it excited discussion. Now to the key point. A man by the name of Willem Saris wrote me a very nice letter, explaining exactly what the RAZD was and that I was wrong in what I had written. I was largely wrong about what I had written, but at least I had the audacity to write about it. "L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!"

    Now, my point is, there may have been people that felt that I was being presumptuous, writing about the METZ 1944 cuff title. I was interested in purchasing one for my collection and I found threads scattered all over the WAF, dating from 2003 up to 2015. I wanted to make a compilation of all of the data into one thread so that not only I, but the next guy would have all of the facts at their fingertips, even if there was a scarcity of information. And indeed, there is a marked scarcity of information concerning this award. I saw a pinned thread on the CHOLM shield and another on the repro KUBAN shield, but nothing on any cuff title, much less the rarest of them all! I was also surprised to see no pinned thread on the Spanien 1936-1939 cuff title. Food for thought should anyone wish to do something about it. First, I asked Pascal H. what he thought of it and after the exchange of a few PMs, I forged ahead. I made a compilation of the available photographs and remarks of all the different METZ 1944's that I could find. Where the opinion of the contributors of the thread felt it was bad or good, I marked that as the judgment. I included a link to each thread so that anyone that wanted to could go to that thread and look and judge for themselves. It would be their money that they would be spending if they were interested in buying one, so why not give them all of the info available.
    After all of that work, getting everything together, I looked at a cuff title that was for sale and from WHAT I COULD SEE, it appeared that it might not be all that it was cracked up to be.
    Enter Antonio Scapini. After a series of spirited exchanges, he convinced me that I was wrong, much as Mr. Saris convinced me of the error of my ways regarding the RAZD insignia group and it's origins and purposes. Now here's the thing. At least I had enough interest and I cared enough about trying to pull what was available together, not only for myself, but for anyone else that needed it. I tried, I was wrong. Did anyone learn anything from this other than myself? Of course they did. I had numerous people that talked to me personally and via emails and PMs. So, aside from the fact that all of the threads are tied together, it benefited people that are on the WAF. Good enough for me. So for anyone that thinks that I should have kept my thoughts to myself, I would have to challenge them to explain why. I would like to thank Mr. Scapini and Mr. Hritz. They were both invaluable in shaping the way that I looked at things in regards to this cuff title and antiques and collectibles in general. To quote a very smart person, " I have made enough mistakes, jumping into things that I had not researched, to use caution before I buy. I always advise anyone to avoid items outside of their comfort level. I believe Antonio because he is not a dealer, but a researcher and collector. He has nothing to gain by trying to stretch the truth." Words to live by gentlemen! Not only regarding Mr. Scapini but to apply to everything in general in your search for that item that you desire.
    Lastly, I would like to mention that I bought this award that was for sale in the United States. Lest anyone think that I was belittling it so that I might drive the price down, I will tell you that I bought it at a price very close to the original asking price, getting only a little bit more than the discount given to a 'new customer'. After everything was said and done, my comfort level was....comfortable. I feel that I will be able to sleep nights, knowing that I have become one of the few custodians of a rare piece of historical insignia.
    Tim Alexander

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  • Antonio Scapini
    replied
    Tim I thought you understood, but after reading your answer I understand I was mistaken.
    Please read my last post and make some good comparisons before answer again.
    You will see you posted 2 different styles of cufftitles and one of them is exactly the same of the one you think fake.
    Believe me: make some good comparisons Tim.
    It's hard to change the mind of someone if don't want, but this thread is not useful if informationspresent the same type as original and questionble at the same time!

    Leave a comment:


  • TP Alexander
    replied
    I may very well have been too pedantic and set in my ways of thinking. Unfortunately, the only examples on the WAF to be found by search (by and large) of this CT are of the one variety of the famous "four characteristics" & I am sure that seeing only these colored my thinking.
    I have enjoyed the back and forth with you and will consider your arguments in support of your position. I used to be on the debating team in school and I learned a lot about challenging other people's opinions. I didn't always win. I wasn't always right and I wasn't always well enough versed in my subject presentation.
    Time will tell.
    Perhaps people will see this thread and begin to show their CTs on here and hopefully we can see more SOLDBUCH/WEHRPASS entries concerning this award.
    Tim

    Leave a comment:

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