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    A-H pilot's badge

    For discussion: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...15#post7395015
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Don D.; 05-16-2016, 04:05 PM.
    pseudo-expert

    #2
    My reference by Rob Pandis advises that this badge is an unverified pattern and most likely a post-1945 production.
    Mike

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      #3
      Originally posted by Mike Swan View Post
      My reference by Rob Pandis advises that this badge is an unverified pattern and most likely a post-1945 production.
      Mike
      Sorry, I am interested in Austrian Pilot´s badges for a few years, reading and lately also participating in all discussions. First badge of this type I bought in 2013 with the help of member Elmar Lang, who is considered expert on Austrian Imperial Awards, and who also owns original Pilots badge of best Hungarian Pilot Josef Kiss. He was my tutor during my first steps in this field.

      Here is my badge of same type as is the one on estand (just with preserved crosses on both crowns). I still keep this one in my collection.

      Here is the thread, where my first badge of this type (and many others) was originally discussed:
      http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...n+pilots+badge
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Miro O; 05-08-2016, 05:13 AM.

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        #4
        Here is the printscreen of Elmar Lang´s PM, where he approved this type of badge.
        Attached Files

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          #5
          Here is the link to emedals page, where examples of the same type of Karl badge were and still are in offer with very similar description:
          (link goes to active listing, photos posted below are of older one)

          http://www.emedals.com/europe/austri...-pilot-s-badge
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Miro O; 05-08-2016, 06:01 AM.

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            #6
            Here is a comparison of Pilots badge on estand with what is known as post 1945 fake, so called "Horvath fake" (by the name of company in Budapest, which produced them).
            I am sure you will find "some" differences.
            Attached Files

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              #7
              Originally posted by Mike Swan View Post
              My reference by Rob Pandis advises that this badge is an unverified pattern and most likely a post-1945 production.
              Mike
              Can we see the scan, picture, or photo of particular reference which Rob Pandis advises you, most likely?

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                #8
                Originally posted by Miro O View Post
                I am sure you will find "some" differences.
                Good point Miro. The challenge here is finding any similarity. Not maching at all

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                  #9
                  why is the green emale in the tops of the leave not so dark as the rest?
                  IMHO I don´t like the white emale.

                  Eagle and the fixation of it, looks good.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by otter76 View Post
                    Good point Miro. The challenge here is finding any similarity. Not maching at all
                    Honestly, it is because this type of Horvath fake attempts to imitate earlier Karl type badge (I am not even sure, if "specialised" fakes of late war type exist).

                    Earlier Karl type badge, as is written in my listing description, was slightly different from late war type. It had dark green leaves, enamelled crown headband, different hardware, slightly different eagle, which was solid, and it was marked.

                    Earlier Karl type of badge is portrayed also in Robert Pandis book (see the scan). But as I haven´t seen the whole book, I am really interested to see some page, where late war type of precisely this shape is described as post 1945 production.
                    Attached Files

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by torrian View Post
                      why is the green emale in the tops of the leave not so dark as the rest?
                      It is because of already mentioned "autumn" effect, typical for late war type of Karl Pilots badge. This effect can be seen on estand badge, emedals badge, as well as on Karl type badge on this picture, which comes from one Czech collection (Karl Type at the top right).
                      Attached Files

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by torrian View Post
                        IMHO I don´t like the white emale.
                        One of very distinctive features of postwar fakes is that their enamels, doesn´t matter if white, green or red, always look minty. You can only hardly see some tarnish, hairline crack or chipping (partial enamel loss) on them. It is because many fakes have not glass enamels, but some kind of transparent epoxy. And this holds really well.

                        Another reason why you will never see partial enamel loss on post 1945 fakes:
                        Because on originals, the laurel wreath has each leaf enamelled separately. And what is enamelled separately, can also chip separately.
                        On fakes, the leaves are enamelled as a whole and the laurel wreath is one big enamel.

                        I know Mr. Lang would argue that there are also some minty looking originals, but I would say that partial enamel chipping (as can be seen on every badge I posted here as original) is very good sign of badge being original.

                        First picture: Glossy minty Horvath fake of FJ Type Pilots badge.

                        Second picture: Comparison of original early Karl Type (left) and Horvath fake of Karl Type (right). Although original badge is in really good condition, you can find few areas of partial enamel loss. While fake is all minty.
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by Miro O; 05-08-2016, 11:05 AM.

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                          #13
                          Here are a few photos of pages from Rob Pandis's volume. There're not ideal but give you some idea.

                          The first badge is allegedly a verified original, while the other appears identical to that currently on estand.

                          I look forward to further opinions as I'd like to own one of these badges but never had the opportunity to handle an original.

                          Mike
                          Attached Files

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                            #14
                            Couple more.
                            Attached Files

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                              #15
                              "Red flags" of Mr. Pandis:

                              1. Thin pin

                              Same "thin pin" is on original Austrian Pilots badge FJ type (first pic).

                              On the other hand, it is typical feature of fakes to imitate hardware style of original badge. Every fake I have seen so far, has the same style of hardware as original: FJ first type fake - pin, as original. FJ second type fake - two hooks, as original. Karl early type - two hooks as original.

                              Here is the photo comparison of original early Karl type (left) and its respective fake (right). Unfortunately, I have only obverses photo in my reference folder, but the hardware (or at least fact that there is no pin) can be seen also from the front.

                              The reason why I sometimes don´t have saved also the reverse photos is identical to what I said at the beginning of this post. Pilots badges fakes are very good in imitating hardware, so hardware is not and distinctive feature to sort out fake of Austrian Pilots badge. At least not for the beginner. Devil is in the obverse detail.
                              Attached Files

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