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Early BGS Jaeger Load Carrying Equipment

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    #46
    Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
    Volume 11 of Cyrus Lee's outstanding "Soldat" series gives this example of a post-war M1911.
    I came across this one on a Wehrmacht collector's website. Unfortunately he did not have the picture of the actual Modell 1911 Patronentasche. He states the image is from an eBay.de auction. Anyway it is a 1957 dated Modell 1911 Patronentasche - the first I have ever seen - so they are out there...somewhere:



    Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
    Uwe - Thanks for clearing that up. Can we conclude that this e-tool was manufactured after the war?
    I couldn't tell you if it is post war. It sure looks to be.

    Given that the folding intrenching tool was introduced sometime in the early 1960s [1960-1961] there had to be post-war manufactured straight-handle intrenching tools. I don't think the BGS would have continued to use wartime intrenching tools and carriers that were getting to be 15 years old [if not older]. I have seen images from 1961-62 where they are still carrying the straight-handle intrenching tool.

    Comment


      #47
      sgtmunroe - Very interesting post. Having established in this thread that the BGS adapted the G1 with G-43 style magazine pouches in 1955 before switching over to leather in 1957, why was Max Stelzer still producing M1911 pouches and for who? My best guess is ceremonial units.

      Somewhere I have a picture of a c.1956 Bundesmarine honor guard wearing M1911 ammo pouches and presenting arms with the U.S. M-1 Garand. Perhaps, like the e-tool, M1911 pouches were wearing out and orders for new ones were placed for a rapidly expanding Bundeswehr.

      Any other thoughts?

      TJ

      Comment


        #48
        TJ,
        I have seen photos of BGS honour guard around 1963 or so with K98. I think they had ammo pouches too. I not sure also how long it take to complete re-equipment with G1. It was certain sometime after 1955.

        regards
        Klaus

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
          ...the BGS adapted the G1 with G-43 style magazine pouches in 1955...
          I am curious, where did you come across the 1955 date as the date of adoption of the G1? I have yet to find it in my research and it would be a nice addition to the timeline I have been working on:

          What I know, so far, about the BGS Gewehr 1:
          • December 1954 - FN demonstrates the FN FAL to the BGS at Bonn; three versions are demonstrated - Rifle 1 [Ser.Nr. DEU 1] is a FN FALO model; Rifle 2 [Ser.Nr. DEU 2] is a Canadian model; Rifle 3 [Ser.Nr. DEU 3] is a T-48 type.
          • 1955 - the BGS purchase 100 of the Canadian model [identical to the demonstration Rifle 2] without a Mündungsfeuerdämpfer for further testing. Later in the year the BGS purchase an additional 1600-2000 of the same model, but with a T-48-type Mündungsfeuerdämpfer screwed onto the barrel. These were utilized for troop trials and later designated the Modell a or Kanada-modell.

            The Modell a had the front sight protectors with a hole, higher sights [front and back] than the regular FN FAL, wood furniture [including wood carry handle and wood handguard with 3 slots], and a screw-on T-48-type Mündungsfeuerdämpfer. Lower receiver markings: S, EF, and DF.

            It appears after the troops trials, and the adoption of the Gewehr 1, the Modell a that was aquired for trials was issued out to the troops with the other models aquired by the BGS.
          • 1956 - in September 1956 the BGS purchase an additional 4,800 Modell a, except this time the wood handguards have been replaced with metal handguards and folding bipod. These rifles are designated the Modell af. Lower receiver markings: S, EF, and DF.

            The total initial BGS purchase from FN is set for 100,000 rifles. It is unknown if this includes the intial purchase of the Modell a.

            Production by FN begins with a third model for the BGS that is identical to the Modell af but has a lug on the barrel [obviously a later request] for attachment of a slip-on Gewehrgranatgerät [rifle grenade device] and Manöverpatronengerät [blank-firing device]. This version still has the screw-on T-48-type Mündungsfeuerdämpfer and is designated the Modell b. Lower receiver markings: unknown.

            During 1956 the Bundeswehr also begins testing of the Gewehr 1 by obtaining 10 samples of the BGS Modell b.

            The Bundeswehr place a contract with FN on 13 November 1956 for 100,000 Gewehr 1 rifles that are similar to the BGS Modell b but do away with the T-48-type screw-on Mündungsfeuerdämpfer and instead have a slip-on type Mündungsfeuerdämpfer. This new version also does away with the wood carry handle and replaces it with a plastic one and the sights are changed to the low FN FAL-type with solid front sight protectors. The BGS contract rifles are changed to this version and later designed the Modell c. Lower receiver markings: S, E, and D.

            NOTE: the Bundeswehr contract requires that 50,000 of the rifles be delivered by February 1957 and another 50,000 by March 1958. It is unknown when the BGS rifles were to be delivered.

            The Modell c becomes the standard Gewehr 1 in service with the BGS and Bundeswehr. The Bundeswehr do not appear to utilize the Modell c designation and the BGS have their rifles marked with a "C" after the serial number to indicate the model number. This appears to have been done with all three prior models - but I have only personally seen an "af" and "C" marked rifle.
          • 1957 - the first photographic evidence I personally have found of the Gewehr 1 in BGS service is an image dated 30 June 1957. The Grenzjäger in the image have the Modell a Gewehr 1 but no magazine pouches are worn. The first images I have personally seen of the canvas magazine pouches appear in images taken later in 1957.


          Comment


            #50
            sgtmunroe - Disregard adopted in 1955, that should be demonstrated in 1955. After reviewing my original source, page 19 of Moderne Handwaffen der Bundeswehr by Abresch and Wilhelm, I realized that I mistranslated the word 'vorgefuehrt' (demonstrated). I apologize for any confusion.

            Below is an excerpt from an early study of BGS weapons I started back in 2001, long before the web forum explosion. There may be a nugget or two that may be of use top someone, but I'm sure better (i.e. more accurate) information is currently available. It may be best to start a separate thread on BGS and BW weapons development, but I'll leave this here to finish what I started. Unraveling the different types of pistols used by the BGS (P1, SIG P210-4 / P2; Astra 600/43 / P3; P6; P7, etc.) is a project in itself.

            I commend you on your scholarship and appreciate the vintage photos.

            All the best - TJ

            " Jägers assigned to the truck mounted rifle companies were provided with M1 Carbines, the French Model Kar 98k and the Heym Customs Carbine. The latter weapon, as its name implies, was originally developed for the Federal Customs Service (Zollgrenzschutz) by Friedrich Heym, a long established gun maker and noted manufacturer of hunting rifles and shotguns. Essentially a “sporterized” Kar 98k, the weapon features a civilian finish stock and an open barleycorn front sight. No provision was made for a bayonet lug or cleaning rod. The rifle received a bad reputation when a number of breeches burst during firing. These misfortunes, probably attributable to the inferior post-war materials, earned the weapon the unfortunate sobriquet of “widow maker”. Belgium’s FN FAL, taken under evaluation in 1955 as the Deutsches Modell 1 (DM 1) and later adopted as the Gewehr 1 (G1), would eventually replace all three weapons.
            The BGS was also forced to look abroad for submachine guns. They initially turned to the Beretta Model 38/49 in 9mm, designed by Tullio Maregoni. Adapted as the MP1 in 1951, this unique design featured dual triggers with front trigger for single shots and the rear fully automatic. The wartime design, the Model 38 A-42, had served as a substitute standard in the Wehrmacht as the Machinenpistole 738 (i). In the early sixties, the BGS looked to German designers to replace the MP1. After evaluating the Walther designed MPL and supplementing the MP1 with an order of 1,000 DUX 53 submachine guns from the Spanish firm Oviedo in 1954, the BGS would settle on the Heckler & Hoch HK 54. Known universally by its BGS designation of MP5, this submachine gun version of the G3 rifle is standard issue for innumerable elite police and military units worldwide. The retractable stock version of the gun is labeled MP5A1.
            In selecting a machine gun, the BGS immediately settled on the wartime MG 42. As we saw above with the Kar 98k, the Germans found themselves in the unenviable position of having to purchase the machine guns from France, which had captured them during the war. Resuming production of the MG42 was more problematic than the Kar 98k, as the original blue prints were lost during the war. In the late fifties, the German firm of Rheinmettal in Dusseldorf “reverse engineered” the 7.92mm MG42 to produce a version chambered for the standard 7.62mm NATO round. Rheinmettal gave this version of the weapon the commercial designation MG42/59.
            Known as the MG1 in BGS service, it began replacing the MG42 in 1959. In the 1970s, the BGS adapted the Heckler & Koch HK 21E 7.62mm MG as the G8. Externally resembling the G3 service rifle, this versatile weapon was easier to control and thus more suitable to the needs of BGS. Magazine fed, it is easily converted to belt feed with the application of an accessory mechanism. The G8 remains in BGS service today and is issued with a 4 X power sighting scope. It accepts standard night vision devices. In a final note on BGS armament, the information uncovered so far would indicate that 106mm Recoilless Rifles were acquired to arm the light gun company.
            "

            Comment


              #51
              sgtmunroe - In the picture you supplied in post #49, I noticed that Jägers 4 and 6 have helmet covers. Do you happen to know if these were official issue or were they field adapted from sand bags or the like?

              I think either you or Klaus1989 supplied pictures of similar helmet covers in a different thread.

              Thanks - TJ
              Attached Files

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
                Disregard adopted in 1955, that should be demonstrated in 1955. After reviewing my original source, page 19 of Moderne Handwaffen der Bundeswehr by Abresch and Wilhelm, I realized that I mistranslated the word 'vorgefuehrt' (demonstrated). I apologize for any confusion.
                Darn! I was hoping you had the info! It would be nice to know the adoption date as it has proved elusive to date.

                Great info on the history of BGS small arms!

                I have asked the vet I got the image from about the helmet covers. He is in the image but not one of the ones wearing a helmet cover! I will let you know what his response is as soon as I hear back from him.

                Comment


                  #53
                  According to the gentleman in the picture [and also verfied by another veteran] the "helmet cover" is not actually a helmet cover. Both of the vets [both of whom were long-term BGS] state that they are actually very fine mesh helmet nets.

                  Both state they were standard issue prior to the "large" weave helmet nets. The other vet [not in the image] states he carried both throughout his tenure with the BGS. It appears it was sort of an "alte hase" thing to have one of the early helmet nets.

                  I have since sent off another email asking for the details of this helmet net [i.e. how it was attached, etc.] and to see if he has any "close up" images of the helmet net in use.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    sgtmunroe - Does this helmet net (seen on Manion's) have any chance of being the one you described?

                    I never would have guessed a fine mesh net based on the period photos; thanks for the clarification.

                    TJ
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
                      sgtmunroe - Does this helmet net (seen on Manion's) have any chance of being the one you described?

                      I never would have guessed a fine mesh net based on the period photos; thanks for the clarification.

                      TJ
                      For me this does not look like a helmet net for camouflage purpose...this should be a insect protection veil (Mückenschleier)

                      Jens

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Here are a couple of more images showing the alleged "fine mesh" helmet net. I am still trying to find a true close up image of it.

                        Both of these images were taken at the same training grounds as the other picture and both are taken in 1957.

                        In the first image the Grenzoberjäger second from the right has the more common seen alleged "fine mesh" helmet net. This type is also seen being worn in other images. It appears that this type of helmet net has a strip of fabric that is sewn through it. The Grenzjäger at the far right appears to have some form of fine mesh helmet net different from the other two types!



                        In this next image [taken in 1957 as stated above] the Grenzoberjäger holding the MG42 has the alleged "fine mesh" helmet net. Also note the Grenzoberjäger at the far right, with the practice Stielhandgranate ["potato masher"], is wearing a pair of the first issue canvas G1 magazine pouches. It is hard to tell but I believe the Grenzoberjäger second from the left, holding his G1 up, is also wearing the canvas pouches. Just for information sake the G1 rifles are the Modell b variation.

                        Last edited by sgtmonroe; 09-23-2009, 04:24 AM.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Holy Potato Masher Batman!

                          That's the first picture of a wartime grenade I've seen in postwar use. It's also the first time I've seen double G-43 style canvas ammo pouches and canvas ammo pouches worn concurrently with leather ones.

                          And to top that off, there are multiple variations of the now infamous fine mesh helmet net on view. I think Jens might be on to something about it being an insect net.

                          The NCO in the top photo looks totally old school Wehrmacht and it doesn't look like the boys in formation are digging what he has to say. Is the third man from the left in the front rank carrying a drum magazine for the MG42 on his belt or is that a mess tin?

                          As always, thanks for sharing from your unique treasure trove. Each photo you post is an education in itself.

                          All the best - TJ

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
                            Holy Potato Masher Batman!
                            I have yet to figure out why he has one. The only issue hand grenade I know the BGS ever used was the Spanish-manufactured Handgranate A.

                            Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
                            It's also the first time I've seen double G-43 style canvas ammo pouches and canvas ammo pouches worn concurrently with leather ones.
                            I'll dig around as I have a whole series of images of a unit during field exercises and all the NCOs have double canvas pouches while the EMs have leather ones. So I assume at some point having them became an "alte Hase" thing.

                            Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
                            Is the third man from the left in the front rank carrying a drum magazine for the MG42 on his belt or is that a mess tin?
                            You are correct, it is a MG42 drum. Again, I have a number of images of them in use as well as the double-drum carrying trays.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Hi,

                              the net in Post 54 is a "Mückenschleier" (mosquito veil), not usable for real camouflage purposes.

                              Uwe

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Yes, I had some time to do pictures....

                                At first three G1 ammopouches






                                The a flashlight - to my knowledge made in the 70ies - may be not a part of the gear carried on the belt...



                                And, as last item, a postwar made RG 34 cleaning kit in BGS green. As it does not show more stamping as a makers mark I dont know when it was made ... for the BW the RG was - depending on those I`ve seen - made between 1957 and 1963:






                                Regards,
                                Jens

                                Comment

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