Debate: Authentic DDR tunics vs "put-together" DDR tunics

[redjames2004]

For awhile, I was thinking about starting a debate about the authentic DDR tunics vs. "put-together" DDR tunics. When I started collecting DDR uniforms in early 2001, I used eBay to purchase DDR tunics unaware about the authenticity of the DDR uniforms. Then I learned from my close friend,fellow DDR collector REV about the authenticity of East German uniforms. He helped me with these DDR tunics that I purchased via eBay. I noticed that some certain eBay sellers selling put-together DDR tunics on eBay. I contacted my friend REV about these uniforms. He pointed out to some questionable stitchings on the put-together DDR tunics. Some sellers put some accessories to spice up the DDR tunics. I personally prefer real DDR tunics over put-together DDR tunics. I like the originality found on the authentic DDR uniforms. I always go over German eBay where a lots of authentic DDR tunics are. But on German eBay,theres are put-togther DDR tunics. We need to educate about on the originality of East German tunics. Yes, I saw some threads on this great forum about questionable put-together DDR tunics on US eBay. One ebay bidder posted a thread about eBay auction for dark collar DDR para with incorrect chute with wings insignias. Later he got messages from other forum members regarding that tunic. He retracted his bid from that auction thanks to other forum members' help. I learned lots of lessons on the put-togther DDR tunics. We need to educate on the DDR tunics! Thanks,Redjames

[DaveM]

Hi James,

what I see here is not a need to educate people...people will buy stuff they like and they have a right to do so regardless whether it is in fact a "stinky" tunic or a fresh unissued one from a 1990 DDR warehouse...it's their choice and all the power to them

the average collector educates generally buys stuff, develops an interest and educates himself in the process...irrespective of what tidbits of info are briefly posted on an ongoing forum such as this...they first have to find this place

as far as adding decorations, replacing dirty shoulderboards, this is a slippery slope...for example who really can tell if say a Bester badge came original to tunic X if it fits in the time period of tunic X and any alteration to the original is just that an alteration.... a put-together if you like

yet doing so is the individual collectors choice and whether it is on a "stinky" tunic or unissued one

In preferring "real" tunics over "put-together" tunics...
you must have a closely guarded scientific method to analyze every last tunic to determine if that bester badge or shoulder board is original to the tunic... probably that electron microscope in your garage

I see a hobby where we buy what we want...."real" or "put-together" and each of us does what we please with our collection

I dont understand what the difference is between your "authentic DDR uniform" and the unissued one say I bought from DealerX ...

Is mine not authentic? Sure its unissued, probably not worth as much as yours but I wanted it, I bought it and it is "real" .... whether a tunic is unissued vs issued doesn't make a tunic legitimate

I don't see the hobby as a crusade to clean up ebay, "educate" others, or anything in that realm...
I enjoy collecting, studying and reading about the era
cheers,
Dave

what about these? Opinions please.

#2

[Mike G.]

Hi Marvin,

A Zoll and an open-collar era Signal's Tunic. If you can make your question just a wee bit more specific, more can be said.

About the original post on this thread. Without question, people who collect militaria and lets say, clothing, to be specific, have as many varied agendas as are there collectors. We all collect for different reasons and the goals we set for ourselve and to which we wish to aspire therefore differ.

The question, or better, the often heard and used phrase/term - "Put-to-gether" is at best, subjective. And as to definition, it can be defined a number of different ways, dependent upon the individual collector, and within the scope of what is being collected.

Narrowing the scope down to say, NVA Tunics. They cover a broad expanse from 1956 to 1990, and therein saw many uniform changes as well as changes in the awards and decorations that were worn on them. While there are rules and regulations that address the changes, what is clearly apparent, is that there were very large overlaps relevant to implementation of these changes, which often covered several years. In other instances, regulations don't seem to apply - such as is the case with NVA military depicted in a 1990 parade wearing both the new type and old type qualification badges. There simply is not a set-in-stone set of rules, that was always adhered to, 100% of the time. Consequently one has to keep an open mind, and accept that every now and then, some odd apple is going to show up, that while maybe heretofore not known, is not necessarily incorrect.

Some people collect to acquire a desired set of specified era pieces. To attain this goal, they are not going to be interested in a stripped, never issued Tunic that went from a warehouse to the auction bloc. Maybe the Seller even to spruce it up, added insignia, shoulder boards, et al. While this type of item might appeal to a re-enactor, there are few collectors of clothing that it would appeal to if they are into items of clothing that were actually issued to, and worn during a specified time by an actual NVA soldier. We as collectors have to recognize and respect both types of collectors points of view, and their individual respective collecting objectives and needs.

But it also is important to understand that with very few exceptions, can it be possible to acquire a Tunic that has not had some alteration done from its original condition at inception of its production. This is due in part to how the NVA handled this commodity, as well as how these uniforms (Tunics) were put together to begin with. For example, in most cases, when sent to laundry, they had to first be stripped of insignia and shoulder boards. These pieces then had to be sewed back on when the Tunic came back. They were not always sewed back to factory specifications, dependent upon who did the sewing, and where it was accomplished. In fact, these items might not even get sewed back onto the same original Tunic. That's right. Sometimes the NVA soldier didn't even get his original Tunic back from the cleaners. But if it was his size, he most often had no choice but to accept it. It's NVA East German govenment property - not his property.

Tunics also changed as the wearers military career progressed. Insignia was removed and replaced with promotions. Awards and decorations were changed out accordingly as well.

Tunics were sometimes altered to adhere as best as possible, to new uniform changes that were implemented. A perfect example of this is the shaving of the colored piping on Peaked Hats, which then was covered with new white only piping. That definitely is an altered item, but a desirable collectible non-the-less. And the alteration was official.

When acquiring Tunics through dealers of these items, whether it be ebay, directly from the Seller, or through some other source, it is important to know the person with whom you are dealing, particularly if the collector is attempting to acquire "Period Specific" Tunics. But even then, there is no gurantee that the item is what it is proported to be. What was originally issued out of the factory to a soldier in the field as a Signals Tunic, might in the end, after many changes and occurrences throughout the life of its history, end up for auction as a Rear Services Tunic. And without anyone having mucked around with it. These items were constantly being turned in my people leaving the service, and then refurbished where needed, and then reissued - not always to the same kind of unit.

So what constitutes a "Put-to-gether" Tunic in the frame work I think James is referring to?

I believe what James is attempting to address, is situations where people have Tunics they are wanting to sell, that have been acquired in bulk lot wholesale, outfitted to be specific, albeit rare period pieces, and then offered by the Seller as genuine period items - the implication or inference being an unknown NVA soldier actually at some point in time wore it. Does this happen sometimes? Yes. There have even been occassions where an unscroupolous Seller has colored the white piping of a later era Tunic with a colored marker, and offered it as an earlier era Tunic. There have been instances where the Collar of an Open Collar era tunic has been intentionally darkened, fastened together to give the appearance of a Dark Collar Tunic, and then offered for sale as a Dark Collar Tunic. Put-to-gether? You bet. Okay to do this? Absolutely not.

So what constitutes a put-to-gether Tunic is at best, subjective. But I think we can agree that there are Tunics that are being offered, that are not original, to the extent that they are undesirable if known to the buyer. In that context, if the Seller is representing to the Buyer they are something other, then this at least to the buyer, is a "Put-to-gether" Tunic.

I presently collect mostly Dark Collar era clothing. I never get to actually hold the item/article and inspect it prior to purchase. Therefore, I have to rely on my own education/knowledge, and that of colleagues. I also ask a lot of questions and for photographs. And I try when possible, to purchase from dealers I know and trust. But in the end, there is no way, even after acquisition, to know that a Dark Collared Tunic was not altered from its original date of birth, relevant to the collar insignia and shoulder boards, and cuff bars if a parade tunic, if all these items are "Period Correct" to the uniform. It might have been originally an Infantry Tunic, that someone changed to Signals or Artillery to get more money when sold. If done correctly, there may be no way to ever know.

Also, these Tunics are mostly absent of awards and decorations when originally purchased. At best, all one can do is carefully scrutinize the Tunic for Tale-tell signs of holes, and then attempt as best as possible, to match correct period award and decorations to it. I personally try never to put more there, than there are indications of having previously been. Less in my opinion, is better than more.

Question: Having accomplished the above, is that now a put-to-gether Tunic? By literal definition - yes. I would be wrong to represent it any other way. The Tunic is original, and so are the awards and decorations - just not to each other. But they are period correct. That is the best that can be hoped to be accomplished. None of us under most conditions have any idea for sure what was really on the Tunic when last worn officially. We have to make a subjective and educated guess. This is due in part to the difficult if not almost impossible task of identifying the last original NVA wearer of that specific garment.

We do the best we can, and hope for the best. All we ask for in this "Close-nit" DDR Collecting community, is that we are fare and honest to, and with each other. To that end, I concur with James that it is important to be ever vigilant and to police ourselves. There is nothing wrong with asking questions on this forum of other fellow collectors when in doubt, or posting photos. We shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable or afraid of doing this. If the Seller is honest and trustworthy, there will be someone on the Forum that knows this. If the Tunic has problems that in the context of how and why the buyer collects, makes it questionable, this should be pointed out. None of us have all the answers, all the time. And as stated before, every now and then, the odd apple turns up, that is different, but not wrong. Communication is important. And Forums, such as this one, provide a fantastic venue for the sharing of knowledge and experience.

[Ralph P]

Hey Dave and Redjames...you both bring out very good points about the authentic DDR tunics vs. "put-together" DDR tunics which we for sure will not be able to solve in this thread.

My concern right now is the folks who have a basic tunic with nothing on it when they buy it and put collar tabs or cufftitles on the tunic and then turn around and sell it. What hurts the market is not the expert being able to see that the tunic is a after market tunic its the novice who is coming into the DDR collection field and buys the after market tunic that he is proud that he bought. Then a few years later once the novice gains more knowledge and discovers that his tunic was not what he thought he bought in the first place. I feel and believe that this is the biggest tragedy to us all because now either that collector will take it as a learning lesson, stop collecting or have resentment for a period of time.

My two cents worth to an interesting thread and hope informative and clean discussion.

[Mike G.]

Just another thought. Outside of what the initial post for this thread addressed, there is an even more sinister "Monster" rearing its ugly head, that if not suppressed through education and word of mouth, has the potential to adversely affect this hobby in a very dire way.

Some honest and long time Dealers of DDR memorabilia in Europe recently reported on a finding, that even caught them off guard. Apparently, there is someone or some entity somewhere in what was former Czechoslavakia (Its now split up into several countries) that is producing, possibly via a clandestine "Hat Factory", brand new high-end NVA Peaked Caps. These are either of the General Officer's type, or very early Dark Collar "Color Piped" era type. They are complete reproductions, even down to the sweat shield inside. If soiled properly after production, they will indeed be difficult to tell from the real McCoy. Presently, only the Bullion Insignia (which has yet to be correctly duplicated) is the giveaway. ***Today, a real Bullion Insignia costs nearly as much as the Peaked Hat itself anyway, so it is not cost effective to put them on the replica ( ). ***

Link: http://www.gunboards.com/militaria/t...?TOPIC_ID=2863

So be ever vigilant and ever on the alert. If left unchecked, this could be disastrous for both our pocket books and the hobby.

[SCHUPO]

An excellent line of discussion...not really a debate as I think everyone agrees that originals are good and fakes are bad things. I have collected uniforms for over 40 years and as Dave and Michael have stated most collectors have their own individual preferences. So, taking the long view I would say that I prefer the "stinky" uniforms that show actual use and wear simply because they have more "history" for me than unissued uniforms. It has been said time and time again that the value of all this militaria (which might really be viewed as used clothing) is in the condition. Condition, condition, condition are repeatedly stated as the three factors that drive cost and value since two identical material culture artifacts will sell for different prices if they are minty or stinky. My preferences really go against the grain of mainstream thought in this regard.

Having said that, I have unissued uniforms in my collection with paper tags still attached. They have a place as a type piece but since they are unissued they do not have any awards and are kind of plain Jane looking. I also have worn items that do have awards and service stripes, along with wear, tear, and soiling. These too have a place in a collection. Everyone must decide what they want to collect.

I also believe the issue of "put together" is, as has been stated, largely in the eye of the beholder. If a veteran gives you a uniform but keeps his insignia and awards is the tunic original? Do you keep it just the way you found it or send the dirty thing to the cleaners to make it less stinky? Do you sew the insignia that the veteran told you was on the uniform back on? Does it make it any less "authentic" if you carefully replace what was missing from the tunic? These are all questions that the individual collector must answer for himself. At least, in my humble opinion.

Thanks for such an educational reply. These are photo's of the tunics I am looking at. I may purchase one and wondered what everyone thought about them. Which one would be the better of the two to own if this applies. I have no uniform as yet and this is the first time I am considering purchasing such an item. Any opinions and comments are welcome! Marvin

Originally Posted by Michael D. Gallagher

Hi Marvin,

A Zoll and an open-collar era Signal's Tunic. If you can make your question just a wee bit more specific, more can be said.

About the original post on this thread. Without question, people who collect militaria and lets say, clothing, to be specific, have as many varied agendas as are there collectors. We all collect for different reasons and the goals we set for ourselve and to which we wish to aspire therefore differ.

The question, or better, the often heard and used phrase/term - "Put-to-gether" is at best, subjective. And as to definition, it can be defined a number of different ways, dependent upon the individual collector, and within the scope of what is being collected.

Narrowing the scope down to say, NVA Tunics. They cover a broad expanse from 1956 to 1990, and therein saw many uniform changes as well as changes in the awards and decorations that were worn on them. While there are rules and regulations that address the changes, what is clearly apparent, is that there were very large overlaps relevant to implementation of these changes, which often covered several years. In other instances, regulations don't seem to apply - such as is the case with NVA military depicted in a 1990 parade wearing both the new type and old type qualification badges. There simply is not a set-in-stone set of rules, that was always adhered to, 100% of the time. Consequently one has to keep an open mind, and accept that every now and then, some odd apple is going to show up, that while maybe heretofore not known, is not necessarily incorrect.

Some people collect to acquire a desired set of specified era pieces. To attain this goal, they are not going to be interested in a stripped, never issued Tunic that went from a warehouse to the auction bloc. Maybe the Seller even to spruce it up, added insignia, shoulder boards, et al. While this type of item might appeal to a re-enactor, there are few collectors of clothing that it would appeal to if they are into items of clothing that were actually issued to, and worn during a specified time by an actual NVA soldier. We as collectors have to recognize and respect both types of collectors points of view, and their individual respective collecting objectives and needs.

But it also is important to understand that with very few exceptions, can it be possible to acquire a Tunic that has not had some alteration done from its original condition at inception of its production. This is due in part to how the NVA handled this commodity, as well as how these uniforms (Tunics) were put together to begin with. For example, in most cases, when sent to laundry, they had to first be stripped of insignia and shoulder boards. These pieces then had to be sewed back on when the Tunic came back. They were not always sewed back to factory specifications, dependent upon who did the sewing, and where it was accomplished. In fact, these items might not even get sewed back onto the same original Tunic. That's right. Sometimes the NVA soldier didn't even get his original Tunic back from the cleaners. But if it was his size, he most often had no choice but to accept it. It's NVA East German govenment property - not his property.

Tunics also changed as the wearers military career progressed. Insignia was removed and replaced with promotions. Awards and decorations were changed out accordingly as well.

Tunics were sometimes altered to adhere as best as possible, to new uniform changes that were implemented. A perfect example of this is the shaving of the colored piping on Peaked Hats, which then was covered with new white only piping. That definitely is an altered item, but a desirable collectible non-the-less. And the alteration was official.

When acquiring Tunics through dealers of these items, whether it be ebay, directly from the Seller, or through some other source, it is important to know the person with whom you are dealing, particularly if the collector is attempting to acquire "Period Specific" Tunics. But even then, there is no gurantee that the item is what it is proported to be. What was originally issued out of the factory to a soldier in the field as a Signals Tunic, might in the end, after many changes and occurrences throughout the life of its history, end up for auction as a Rear Services Tunic. And without anyone having mucked around with it. These items were constantly being turned in my people leaving the service, and then refurbished where needed, and then reissued - not always to the same kind of unit.

So what constitutes a "Put-to-gether" Tunic in the frame work I think James is referring to?

I believe what James is attempting to address, is situations where people have Tunics they are wanting to sell, that have been acquired in bulk lot wholesale, outfitted to be specific, albeit rare period pieces, and then offered by the Seller as genuine period items - the implication or inference being an unknown NVA soldier actually at some point in time wore it. Does this happen sometimes? Yes. There have even been occassions where an unscroupolous Seller has colored the white piping of a later era Tunic with a colored marker, and offered it as an earlier era Tunic. There have been instances where the Collar of an Open Collar era tunic has been intentionally darkened, fastened together to give the appearance of a Dark Collar Tunic, and then offered for sale as a Dark Collar Tunic. Put-to-gether? You bet. Okay to do this? Absolutely not.

So what constitutes a put-to-gether Tunic is at best, subjective. But I think we can agree that there are Tunics that are being offered, that are not original, to the extent that they are undesirable if known to the buyer. In that context, if the Seller is representing to the Buyer they are something other, then this at least to the buyer, is a "Put-to-gether" Tunic.

I presently collect mostly Dark Collar era clothing. I never get to actually hold the item/article and inspect it prior to purchase. Therefore, I have to rely on my own education/knowledge, and that of colleagues. I also ask a lot of questions and for photographs. And I try when possible, to purchase from dealers I know and trust. But in the end, there is no way, even after acquisition, to know that a Dark Collared Tunic was not altered from its original date of birth, relevant to the collar insignia and shoulder boards, and cuff bars if a parade tunic, if all these items are "Period Correct" to the uniform. It might have been originally an Infantry Tunic, that someone changed to Signals or Artillery to get more money when sold. If done correctly, there may be no way to ever know.

Also, these Tunics are mostly absent of awards and decorations when originally purchased. At best, all one can do is carefully scrutinize the Tunic for Tale-tell signs of holes, and then attempt as best as possible, to match correct period award and decorations to it. I personally try never to put more there, than there are indications of having previously been. Less in my opinion, is better than more.

Question: Having accomplished the above, is that now a put-to-gether Tunic? By literal definition - yes. I would be wrong to represent it any other way. The Tunic is original, and so are the awards and decorations - just not to each other. But they are period correct. That is the best that can be hoped to be accomplished. None of us under most conditions have any idea for sure what was really on the Tunic when last worn officially. We have to make a subjective and educated guess. This is due in part to the difficult if not almost impossible task of identifying the last original NVA wearer of that specific garment.

We do the best we can, and hope for the best. All we ask for in this "Close-nit" DDR Collecting community, is that we are fare and honest to, and with each other. To that end, I concur with James that it is important to be ever vigilant and to police ourselves. There is nothing wrong with asking questions on this forum of other fellow collectors when in doubt, or posting photos. We shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable or afraid of doing this. If the Seller is honest and trustworthy, there will be someone on the Forum that knows this. If the Tunic has problems that in the context of how and why the buyer collects, makes it questionable, this should be pointed out. None of us have all the answers, all the time. And as stated before, every now and then, the odd apple turns up, that is different, but not wrong. Communication is important. And Forums, such as this one, provide a fantastic venue for the sharing of knowledge and experience.

[DaveM]

Another issue is cost....
not every collector can afford to layout the cash for specific tunics...or they aren't in the right place at the right time to snap it up

NVA paratroops are a fine example (we have read here how James discovered his "real" para tunic if a surplus/second hand shop)...

"real" (to paraphrase James) or issued para tunics are few and far between and command top dollar (considering the size of the NVA paratroops, I would say perhaps 1 in 25 para tunics out there was actually issued)

There are unissued para tunics out there that are no less genuine ( one might say even more authentic than James' surplus shop discovery because they are the totally "virgin" products of the DDR's planned economy that seemed to regularly produce militaria to excess of actual requirements and these "virgin" tunics have been not tampered with right down to the missing shoulderboards)

Sure there is stuff out there on ebay.com and ebay.de that is totally bogus, stuff that has been kicked up a notch with a modification, decoration or two, and stuff that is genuine...not to mention the many shakedown artists that lurk on ebay.de

We all have to make choices in our purchases... our own choices
The collectors that have made it this far to this board generally have the "straight dope" on what fits the bill as real and whats not...

I would say like Michael unless you have real provenance on any item, if it falls within accepted parameters and characteristics of a period piece, it is very difficult to prove whether additional modifications or decorations have been added

I have both "stinky" tunics and I have unissued ones

I like both... the unissued jobs give you a chance to play around with decorations...

What's wrong with adding para jump badge, sports badge and a augliette to a unissued tunic that may or may not be in your collection due to its scarcity or cost? nothing

I must say James' "debate" to me smacks of elitism.
Enjoy collecting in your way and I'll enjoy it in mine...
I am not here trying to "educate" anyone , set rules for others, make the world safe from ebay sharks, or anything else...

thanks,
Dave

[Rev462]

It's obvious that all of us would love to get a uniform right off of a guy's back , complete with all insignia, badges and awards intact. Or get Grandpa's uniform that's been sitting in the attic for the past 40 years, untouched since the day he took it off for the last time.

Unfortunately that happens maybe once in a lifetime if you're lucky. As Mike G. has suggested, in order for a uniform to get into our hands it must have survived the ravages of the East German government, importers, wholesalers, dealers and perhaps other collectors. It's truly a find if you can get a tunic that still has the original shoulderboards.

So what are we to do? Let our tunics and uniforms languish in their bare, "lifeless" state? Or try to put a little life back in them by adding the touches that a guy might have to reflect his service record?

I think we can all agree that doing things like coloring the white piping on a visor hat or dying a plain collar black is vandalism at best and outright fraud in the hands of a seller. Likewise is the creation of "fantasy" items, like those God-awful visor hats you see on German Ebay with those "Stasi" "cuff titles" on the cap band.

While the line between "restoration" and "forgery" can indeed sometimes be very gray, there are a few guidelines I try to follow for my own collection that I think, in general, work rather well.



First of all, I see nothing wrong with attaching non-permanent accessories like shoulderboards, shooting cords and aguillettes so long as they are appropriate for the time period and rank. Obviously, an EM/NCO shooting cord on an officer tunic is incorrect, and general's shoulderboards on a wooly EM tunic would be ridiculous.

I also see nothing wrong with attaching things like academy badges,qual badges, bester badges, Leistungsabzeichen, etc as well as medal bars and ribbon bars, again so long as they are reasonable and appropriate for the time period and rank. This is especially true for used tunics where there are holes from the old badges and awards. Myself, I won't poke holes in a tunic that doesn't already have them - but even if you do, you really haven't changed the basic nature of the tunic. The badges are non-permanent and the only thing left behind on the tunic is a hole. Some may call this "damage", but that is up to the next buyer to decide.


Where things really start to get slippery is when the "addition" is permanent - in particular, things that are stitched on - like collar tabs and cuff titles. There is lots of room for devil's play in this department.

I feel that attaching collar tabs is OK - to a point. For example, if you find an unissued Army tunic (or a used one that has been stripped), I don't have a problem with putting a pair of collar tabs on, so long as (once again) they are appropriate for the time period and rank (wooly vs. gabardine) of the tunic. After all, tunics were meant to have collar tabs (eventually) and shoulderboards.

So where does the line get crossed? Here it can get fuzzy, but in general I feel the line is where putting collar tabs would put the tunic in a significantly different price range (i.e., common vs. rare). For example, finding a stripped, 1980's Army officer tunic and sewing on white piped metal collar tabs is one thing. Putting on Paratrooper tabs and shoulderboards is quite another. Army tunics are common - Para tunics are not so common and there is an accompanying difference in value. A similar example can be given for Grenztruppen vs. Grenzflieger tunics.

This same idea applies to attaching things like cuff titles, Dienstlaufbahnabzeichen and NCO collar tress. Not all tunics were meant to have collar tress, or cuff titles, or Warrant Officer patches, etc. Going back to that stripped Army tunic, putting on a pair of collar tabs is one thing. Putting on collar tabs and a "NVA Wachregiment" cuff title is another. Again, you've created something that is in a "different league" than a plain ol' Army tunic.

We all know that the East Germans themselves fiddled with their uniforms as needs required - swapping collar tabs, putting on collar tress, etc. And that's OK - it's one thing that makes this a fascinating hobby. But we as collectors should not get into the business of "creating" things to suit our fancy. I understand that when we buy something it is our property to do with as we please, but I also feel we should respect the item as the historical artifact that it is. After all, it's not like going to Kmart to buy a denim jacket so that we can sew patches all over it.

If a private collector bought the Mona Lisa, would you really like to see him paint a mustache on her? (a bit of an exaggerated example I admit, but it illustrates the point I hope).

[DaveM]

Re: Revs's statement

"I understand that when we buy something it is our property to do with as we please, but I also feel we should respect the item as the historical artifact that it is. After all, it's not like going to Kmart to buy a denim jacket so that we can sew patches all over it."

if the NVA collapsed with a limited amout of surplus I could see some validity to this argument...
but the surplus clothing stock of the NVA is/was staggering....20 million pieces of clothing...documented in Herspring I believe...

A) this is not some rare Dodo bird that we are trying to protect from extinction...
B) it is not the job of average Joe collector to preserve stuff for posterity...thats what museums are for
C) "respect" in leaving an unissued blank tunic in its virgin state I argue is no more noble than the historical knowledge involved to add a couple of decorations and an augliette to reflect or represent an actual photo of the uniform in service that say Joe collector saw in Uniformen, Armeerundschau or some other NVA reference

From the selling perspective, I don't support the modication of tunics to represent something they are not for profit..
but as far as items you have in your collection...go ahead it's your business
cheers,
Dave

[Mike G.]

Originally Posted by Marvin

Thanks for such an educational reply. These are photo's of the tunics I am looking at. I may purchase one and wondered what everyone thought about them. Which one would be the better of the two to own if this applies. I have no uniform as yet and this is the first time I am considering purchasing such an item. Any opinions and comments are welcome! Marvin

Hi Marvin,

Sorry that your original post and inquiry therein kind of got buried or overlooked in all the hoopla.

You asked which of the two Tunics you should get? That is difficult for anyone on the sideline to say, given that they represent two completely different organizations within the DDR.

The Signals Tunic is an Army Tunic and representative of countless different kinds and types of Tunics within the National Volksarmee (NVA).

The Zoll Tunic is completely unassociated with the NVA. It is more closely aligned with the Polizei.

I would suggest and urge you initially to decide upon what organization you are most interested in, and then collect toward getting different Tunics (ie: EM, NCO, Junior Officer, and Senior Officer) representative of that organization. You might also want to get both Dienst and Parade Tunics. That should keep you quite busy. Doing the scattergun thing where you get a Tunic here and there, but none seem to mesh, usually is not as appealing or satisfying (both to the collector and the observer to whom you might later wish to show off your collection).

So first you might want to initially narrow your collecting field down a bit by deciding which of the following you wish to collect: NVA (Army, Air Force, Navy), Fallschirmjager (Airborne), Grenztruppen, Civil Defense, Kampfgruppen, Zoll, Wasserwirtschaft, or Polizei. Upon deciding, you then can decide upon what types of uniforms within the scope of that organization you wish to collect. It always helps to have a theme in mind. Hope this helps.

[redjames2004]

DaveM,Micheal and other DDR collectors,---- Put-together DDR tunics are always source of controversy going on in DDR tunic collecting circles. Collectors had their own opinions when come to collecting DDR tunics. They debated about their DDR tunics' originalty when they first saw the tunics. I personally owns both unissued and issued("stinky") DDR tunics in my collection. I inspects every insignias on my East German uniforms to make sure that they are authentic and original to these tunics with help from my fellow DDR collector friend who happened to be knowledgable in DDR tunics. I personally enjoy collecting both dark collar and later issue(open-collar) DDR tunics. I owns several of dark collar DDR tunics that I acquired in private deals and off the eBay. I enjoyed the challenges of collecting older East German tunics and later issue East German tunics. I avoids "fantasy" tunics and I sticks with original issued DDR tunics well as unissued DDR tunics which has original factory tags on the backs. "Elitism" is a word that I dont use when I am discussing about my DDR tunics on this forum. I am ordinary DDR tunic collector who enjoys collecting DDR tunics. Thanks,James

[Mike G.]

Hi James,

Please don't worry. You are among colleagues and friends here on this Forum, and those of us that know you, know the word "Elitism" does not apply. Don't give it another thought.

Also, I want to thank you for your professional demeanor that was maintained throughout the various posts and responses. Sometimes its difficult to keep a civil head. I applaud you for being a true gentleman in that regard.
Nuff said.

Keep collecting, and keep sharing your finds with the rest of us.

Which by the way, reminds me. Its been a month, and by now you should have mastered that new Digital Camera to the point that you can take some photos of that Para Tunic you so proudly posted a thread a few weeks back about. So what's up? You gonna share your wonderful find with the rest of us, or keep it all to yourself?