Crossed Swords - Trade Badge Question

[yellow]

This is my great uncle who served during WW1 and after. His first unit being the 20th Hussars, his second the 14th Hussars and his final unit the Machine Gun Corps Cavalry. This photo was taken on leave from Mespot in India (Calcutta) 1917 whilst serving with the MGCC.



My question to badge experts on forum is what does the cross swords on his sleeve denote?

Before you jump in and say P.T. instructor may I remind you that in cavalry units the crossed swords also denotes best swordsman in 20 men...........very much applicable to the units which my great uncle served.

I guess there is a real easy way to tell the difference between these two badges........perhaps the swordsman badge was worn on the other arm?

Could be the most daft question ever asked on forum yet! Does anyone know?

Thanks,

Steve.

[leigh kitchen]

From British Army Proficiency Badges by Denis Edwards & david Langley (The Sherwood Press, Nottingham, 1984):

Worn on lower left arm in worsted probably from c1868 by qualified cavalry swordsmen other than Household Cavalry, it was the only sword badge for which Lancers were officially eligible. Appears in Clothing Regs. 1881, last appeared in Clothing Regs 1894, reappeared in regs. 1904 awarded as 4th & 5th prizes, worn on service dress.

Worn on lower left arm in gold by:
Best Swordsnman in each troop of cavalry from 1881 or earlier.
4th & 5th prizes from 1898.
One per 20 men from 1909.
Also worn by each qualified swordsman of Household Cavalry from 1887.
last official listing was in Clothing Regs. 1936 ammended to 1939.
PTI's crossed swords were worn upper right, I have photos I think, showing it worn on bothe upper arms during WWI.

The crossed swords were produced in different variations over the years, the book states that there is no way of distinguishing the purpose of one set of swords from another.

[yellow]

Fantastic reply there Leigh!

So I guess my great uncle Tom is wearing a swordmans badge. Interestingly enough my father showed this photo to my great uncles friend who served with him the 14th but didnt switch to the MGC.........his reply was "what the hell has he got on there?" pointing at that crossed swords badge in the pic. So I am lead to believe he was awarded that badge with the Machine Gun Corps Cavalry........interesting dont you think.

Steve.

[leigh kitchen]

Yes, & it's nice to see a photo with that particular badge on, not a rare badge but not seen in WWI photos as often as the MG, crossed rifles, signals etc

[yellow]

Not my great uncles...........I bought these from the Newark Show for 50p. Do you think these might be of WW1 vintage Leigh?

Steve.

[leigh kitchen]

I'm not clued up on WWI cloth, if I had to guess I'd say WWII - 1960's or thereabouts.

[yellow]

Thanks for your opinion. Here is a scan of the reverse. Certainly a well worn example and no sign of plastics in the materials used.

Its clear from comparing the pics that my great uncles badge has longer blades on the swords.

I cannot help but wonder if the backgrounds of ww1 trade badges to be stitched onto tropical uniforms had a different colour background to those worn on uniforms intended for the European theatre? Do you think the army would have gone to all the trouble?

Steve.

[leigh kitchen]

The insignia in the photo look as if they might be stitched on, but it seems usual for cloth / bullion to be affixed by hook & eye, & for metal insignia to be fitted through properly stitched holes rather than holes just cut in the cloth.
Some units would use different coloured backings to the badges, but I don't know of a different coloured cloth being used as the actual backing material on which the design is embroidered, other than that rank stripes were produced embroidered on a the same KD material that the KD uniforms were made from, &some units made use of the embroidered / bullion badges on the red or dark blue, dark green etc as used on full dress, red "frock" or similar orders of dress.
I would'nt pay too much attention to the variations in blade length etc.
No doubt somebody will chip in with more detail..............