question about 82nd airborne ike jackets

[gilles]

Hi guys,
i can buy this jacket from a well known forum member .
It's dated 1945.

on another forum 2 persons say 2 different things.

person 1: 'it's a pitty it's post-war'

person2: 'ike jackets were distributed as from 1945
the 82nd airborne division returned home in 1946'

now:

who's right

[Brian Dentino]

Ike style jackets were in fact available to men of the 82nd (at least the 325th GIR) as early as late 1944. They first received them while at a base after the Market-Garden operation and before the bulge. Sissoine, France, I believe. Anyway, entirely wrong to say that these Ike style jackets were not available to the men until post war times. Just my 2 cents on this. Hope that it helps.

Brian Dentino

Ps- Allan H. or Kurt could add more to this, as well as many other members of this forum.

[NavyFCO]

Originally Posted by gilles

person 1: 'it's a pitty it's post-war'

person2: 'ike jackets were distributed as from 1945
the 82nd airborne division returned home in 1946'

It all depends... 1945 dated Ike jackets were issued to returning 82nd Airborne paratroopers in 1946, as well as when they were discharged from the service. So the question is: What's the difference between a 1945 dated Ike jacket that was issued to a returning/discharged 82nd Airborne vet in 1946, or a 1944 dated Ike jacked issued to a returning/discharged 82nd Airborne vet in 1946? Perhaps one (or two) numbers in the pocket on the manufacturers label?

Much to some collector's dismay (and surprise), the military didn't all of a sudden STOP EVERYTHING on VJ Day in August 1945 and say:

"Hey, everything made before this date is 'guaranteed wartime manufacture' so let's change all the thread, materials, etc., to make all the postwar manufacture uniforms/patches/insignia worthless to collectors 60 years from now..."

In reality, the manufacturers of uniforms/patches/insignia kept on making their items in order to make money and fulfill contracts. Thus, where do you draw the line at something post-war and "wartime"? I'd guarantee that a good 75% of cut edge patches that people sell as "WW2" were really made post-August 1945. (Egads! Hope I didn't pop any bubbles with that!)

Here's another take on it... Say you have two Ikes, both from returning 82nd Airborne veterans of the same rank with same decorations and same combat experience. In fact, both of them are dated 1944. One vet, however, just "stock" PX-purchased insignia to outfit his brand new Ike at the end of the War. The other vet spent a month's worth of money, and had the local German tailor make all of his insignia in heavy bullion thread, embroidered directly into the Ike jacket. Here's the question: Which jacket is worth more? The one with the stock insignia where the stock from the PX was probably manufactured in 1944, or the Ike jacket where the vet had everything embroidered in November 1945? Of course, you answer, the one with the bullion insiginia! BUT........... Wasn't that bullion insignia made post-WW2? So, wouldn't the Ike be worth LESS because the insignia was manufactured after August 1945????

Anyway, for my money, I honestly don't see any difference between a 1944 Ike and a 1945 dated Ike, if they were issued to a WW2 veteran with period insignia on it. It happened very frequently and until collectors started nit-picking the days/minutes/hours something was manufactured to make it "wartime" or not, the date of manufacture really didn't make much difference to your average returning GI.

Just my two cents.

--Dave

[Jason G]

Dave: I'm with you on this one. Just my 2 cents!
Jason

[Gary Cain]

Hey Dave,
Good points on all you said. As for post war occupation stuff, oftentimes that will bring MORE money than the issue insignia. Why? Because it IS period, it is much rarer and it is oftentimes very beautiful. Period for anyone but an idiot(are there any of those in the hobby ?) will be anything up to the last soldier to make it back from occupation duty, which for some was 1947-48. It is all the same materials etc. Now combat uniforms are a little different and are best discussed in a new thread.

Gary

Originally Posted by NavyFCO

It all depends... 1945 dated Ike jackets were issued to returning 82nd Airborne paratroopers in 1946, as well as when they were discharged from the service. So the question is: What's the difference between a 1945 dated Ike jacket that was issued to a returning/discharged 82nd Airborne vet in 1946, or a 1944 dated Ike jacked issued to a returning/discharged 82nd Airborne vet in 1946? Perhaps one (or two) numbers in the pocket on the manufacturers label?

Much to some collector's dismay (and surprise), the military didn't all of a sudden STOP EVERYTHING on VJ Day in August 1945 and say:

"Hey, everything made before this date is 'guaranteed wartime manufacture' so let's change all the thread, materials, etc., to make all the postwar manufacture uniforms/patches/insignia worthless to collectors 60 years from now..."

In reality, the manufacturers of uniforms/patches/insignia kept on making their items in order to make money and fulfill contracts. Thus, where do you draw the line at something post-war and "wartime"? I'd guarantee that a good 75% of cut edge patches that people sell as "WW2" were really made post-August 1945. (Egads! Hope I didn't pop any bubbles with that!)

Here's another take on it... Say you have two Ikes, both from returning 82nd Airborne veterans of the same rank with same decorations and same combat experience. In fact, both of them are dated 1944. One vet, however, just "stock" PX-purchased insignia to outfit his brand new Ike at the end of the War. The other vet spent a month's worth of money, and had the local German tailor make all of his insignia in heavy bullion thread, embroidered directly into the Ike jacket. Here's the question: Which jacket is worth more? The one with the stock insignia where the stock from the PX was probably manufactured in 1944, or the Ike jacket where the vet had everything embroidered in November 1945? Of course, you answer, the one with the bullion insiginia! BUT........... Wasn't that bullion insignia made post-WW2? So, wouldn't the Ike be worth LESS because the insignia was manufactured after August 1945????

Anyway, for my money, I honestly don't see any difference between a 1944 Ike and a 1945 dated Ike, if they were issued to a WW2 veteran with period insignia on it. It happened very frequently and until collectors started nit-picking the days/minutes/hours something was manufactured to make it "wartime" or not, the date of manufacture really didn't make much difference to your average returning GI.

Just my two cents.

--Dave

[Mark S.]

It is impossible to know exactly when the Ike jacket you have was actually worn. It could have been on a soldiers back in late 1944 or acquired as late as early 1946. It would have all come from the same frequently replenished stockpiles.

The M-1944 Field jacket commonly associated with post D-Day use is the QMD issued version with a pattern date of May 10 1944. This version was in use* until a new pattern was approved on May 27, 1946. Since there were many soldiers in occupation duty in post war Europe and Japan, they could still be wearing 1944 dated jackets as late as 1946 and possibly even 1947.

If you want a true blue WWII Ike, try to find one of the English made Ikes issued to US troops in 1943-44. These were superceded by the US made M-1944 in late 1944. Good luck with that.

So technically, the pattern date of May 10 1944 is WWII issue, despite when it was actually made. If you wanted to get more picky you could only concern yourself with a jacket manufactured before the end of WWII, but there is nothing that says that jacket didnt sit on a shelf until an even later date, and then issued.

* I mean "in use" in the most liberal sense. It wouldnt surprise me one bit if the 1944 patterns were still on the shelves, and issued, far past the 1946 redesign date. I am not familiar enough with US Army surplus designations to comment, maybe someone else can.

[Mark S.]

while we are on the subject, does anyone have a picture of the M-1944 actually being worn in combat? I would love to see one.

[tom2001]

Gilles:

Without seeing a pic of the uniform it's hard to tell. Does it have an "Airborne" tab? If so, it's definitely 1945 or 1946 issue. If it has no tab then it's 1947 or later, when regulations prohibited the wearing of the tab for a few years.

What unit is it? Many Airborne units had occupation duty well into 1946, so seeing a 1945 dated Ike for those units wouldn't surprise me at all.

I suppose it really depends on how YOU see the jacket. Personally, I have no problem with an Ike worn by a combat veteran on occupation duty. During the course of his time overseas, a vet's uniforms would get worn out, stolen, damaged, replaced a few times. Items that weren't carried into battle were often pilfered by rear eschelon troops looking for German souvenirs.

No, it's not an AB jump jacket with the mud of St Mere Eglise still soaked into the sleeves. But it sounds like it may be a nice Ike to an AB vet on occupation duty.

Just my 2c.

[Greg Sebring]

My Dad had his dress blouse converted to an Ike jacket in 1945. I'll have to ask him exactly when it was done. He has told me the 319th GFA had German tailors make the alterations and I always assumed it was immediately post war. Dad remained in Berlin on occupation duty and was eventually discharged back here in the States in January of 1946. Dad did tell me that MG Gavin wanted the 82nd soldiers that got out when Dad did to stay in and return with the Division when they all shipped out as a whole. Gavin's reason was the 82nd was going to march in a victory parade in New York City. Dad said by then it was get home as soon as you could. The parade march didn't appeal to him at the time though now he wishes he had done it. I have a picture I've posted before showing the officers of the 319th. Some are in Ike jackets and it looks like a couple are still in the dress blouse. The two standing on the right in leather jackets are the pilots for the Piper Cub spotter planes they used.

Greg

[NavyFCO]

Originally Posted by Greg Sebring

I have a picture I've posted before showing the officers of the 319th.

Greg-

Great picture! I love the guy with the pipe, his blouse unbuttoned and tie hanging out!

--Dave

[Greg Sebring]

Dave,

As a side note, Dad remembers that Lt. being busted down from Captain for driving himself around in a jeep and rolling it over. In all, Dad said they were the best bunch of officers you could hope to lead you.

Greg

[Brian Dentino]

As Mark stated earlier in this thread, Ike style jackets were ISSUED in late 1944. I know for a fact that the 325th GIR, 82nd AB got theirs either just before Market Garden, or just after being pulled out in Oct. or early Nov. Again, this has been confirmed to me by many vets of this unit during the course of my research on the 325th GIR. Again, just my 2 cents worth, but all this nonsense about Ike's being only post war 1945, bull!
Brian

[Craig Gottlieb]

Does anyone know of a good reliable website where one can buy these jackets, and other higher-end WWII American uniforms?

[Greg Sebring]

For what it's worth,...I ask my Dad when they switched over to the "Ikes" and this was his reply. Please keep in mind Dad turned 80 last July and I got him hooked on the computer to the point he bought a DELL system. His sentence structure is pretty good for an 80+ year old but an English teacher would cringe, I'm sure.You are seeing his response exactly as I received it.


GREG: IKE HAD THE ENGLISH MAKE ONE IN 1942. IN AUG. OF 1944 HIS STAFF HAD THEM WHEN WE
HAD A DIV. REVIEW IN ENGLAND.
I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHEN WE GOT THEM. I THINK IT WAS AROUND THE BULGE TIME
I KNOW WE HAD THEM ON IN COLOGNE AT THAT DINNER YOU CAN CHECK THAT BY THAT PICTURE OF US. THAT WAS IN APRIL OF 1945. WE HAD TO TURN OUR BLOUSE IN TO THE SUPPLY
SGT. SO THEY COULD ALL BE DONE AT ONCE. THEY TOLD US THE GERMANS WOULD DO IT. MAYBE
THEY SENT THEM SOME WHERE I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW WHEN WE TURNED THEM IN TO HAVE
IT DONE MAYBE AFTER HOLLAND, AS WE ONLY HAD ABOUT 3 WEEKS AND WE LEFT TO BACK IN
COMBAT THE BULGE.
ALL O.K. HERE RAIN HERE LAST NIGHT STILL IN THE MID 60;S WHICH I LIKE.

DAD

[Allan H.]

Greg,
This is some very interesting information and I am glad that you are getting it down on paper. Make sure your Dad ID's all of the people in the photos that he can as this will be much harder to do in the future.
I did want to make one comment about the soldiers turning their 4 pocket blouses in- the ones in the photo are not modified 4 pocket blouses converted to Ike jackets- they are US made Ike jackets. While I am sure that your dad was told that they were turning their jackets in for modification, they were actually simply reissued with a new jacket. I would think that it would be next to impossible to convert a four pocket to look that close to the issued item.
Allan

Originally Posted by Greg Sebring

For what it's worth,...I ask my Dad when they switched over to the "Ikes" and this was his reply. Please keep in mind Dad turned 80 last July and I got him hooked on the computer to the point he bought a DELL system. His sentence structure is pretty good for an 80+ year old but an English teacher would cringe, I'm sure.You are seeing his response exactly as I received it.


GREG: IKE HAD THE ENGLISH MAKE ONE IN 1942. IN AUG. OF 1944 HIS STAFF HAD THEM WHEN WE
HAD A DIV. REVIEW IN ENGLAND.
I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHEN WE GOT THEM. I THINK IT WAS AROUND THE BULGE TIME
I KNOW WE HAD THEM ON IN COLOGNE AT THAT DINNER YOU CAN CHECK THAT BY THAT PICTURE OF US. THAT WAS IN APRIL OF 1945. WE HAD TO TURN OUR BLOUSE IN TO THE SUPPLY
SGT. SO THEY COULD ALL BE DONE AT ONCE. THEY TOLD US THE GERMANS WOULD DO IT. MAYBE
THEY SENT THEM SOME WHERE I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW WHEN WE TURNED THEM IN TO HAVE
IT DONE MAYBE AFTER HOLLAND, AS WE ONLY HAD ABOUT 3 WEEKS AND WE LEFT TO BACK IN
COMBAT THE BULGE.
ALL O.K. HERE RAIN HERE LAST NIGHT STILL IN THE MID 60;S WHICH I LIKE.

DAD