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1957 Medals, Orders and Decorations Third Reich Awards redesigned in 1957 without National Socialist Emblems, including Post-war and Veteran-related items.

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Old 12-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #46
Tom B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seewolf View Post
I am too curious to the the Johanniter order when it arrives

I have one from the 50s, these ones have a great look and special feeling. One of the pieces i really can´t part with.
Looks like a white PLM

And with provenance ..... mmmmh, great
What provenance ? I haven't seen any ? A trusted seller does not equal provenance...however it's better than a COA (which are only good as kindling).
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:51 PM   #47
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@Tom I think Rudiger was talking about his own Johanniter?
We have seen no provenance on the grouping that started this thread really, just the sellers word and reputation!
-Nigel
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:26 PM   #48
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The case is the same as mine. It looks like it's had a hard time with all the wear to the edges. I can't work that out, but as everyone has said, each piece has it's own story. The items are all genuine and very nice, and they all fit with the man's record so that's a very good start. I can't wait to see the "white PLM" close up.

Rudy I think you're right about the pips, it may have just been the angle, though even if different they still fit in.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:15 PM   #49
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Rudy,

The shoulder board pips also look the same to me from your second photograph. I think it might have been the angle of the shot... pretty typical askance view from photographs that can be deceptive. I would also mention that sometimes soldiers who put ribbon bars together did not use all the awards, or cherry picked what they wanted, to show on their medal bars. I think that we can sometimes overthink these slight variations without taking into account what the award recipient was thinking when he had the ribbon bar/chain made up. After all, it was up the purchaser to decide what he wanted on his bar/chain. He did not have to include every award.

George
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom B View Post
What provenance ? I haven't seen any ? A trusted seller does not equal provenance...however it's better than a COA (which are only good as kindling).
The Johanniter from Bartsch will come with the doc what is even more rare.
For me enough provenance.

Rock solid provenance you´ll only have if you get the group directly from the vet .... but even then you wouldn´t know if he just sells the 4th or 5th set to these collectors who are willing to pay much money for a uniform and awards.

I am out here.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:13 PM   #51
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Gentlemen,

I wanted to update this thread with the photo of another of Oberstleutnant Günther Bartsch's ribbon bars. I must have come across this online at some point and have saved it in my files as it was named.

Does anyone know what the last ribbon represents? Possibly something medical related?

Best regards
Pierce
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:08 PM   #52
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Deutsche Verkehrswacht ?
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:58 AM   #53
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Deutsche Verkehrswacht ?
Rüdiger

I do believe you are correct!!

Is this a national or state awarded medal?

Thank you
Pierce
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:02 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luftkreig View Post
Rüdiger

I do believe you are correct!!

Is this a national or state awarded medal?

Thank you
Pierce
It is an official German award by law.
I have seen it not very often on a ribbon bar, I would say very very rare.
The medal is from the Deutschen Verkehrswacht organsiation and authorised by the Bundespräsident in 1957. (but not a 57er )
You can compare it with the Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes or Deutsches Feuerwehr-Ehrenkreuz ...
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:51 AM   #55
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There were some comments that Gunther Bartsch wasn't listed in the Odr. I came across this in the June 1990 Odr magazine. This is closer for me.

Regards,
Rudy
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Old 03-21-2015, 06:18 PM   #56
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A great grouping I have failed to comment upon, these BW groupings are superb...as you see they are fully researchable, all details will finally surface as the result here......Absolutely great to see Bartsch had a "D" frame, kinda pours scorn on the christmas bauble theory held by some.....Love it Rudy !
Prost ! Steve.
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Old 03-21-2015, 06:46 PM   #57
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Agreed. Christmas bauble indeed
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Old 03-21-2015, 10:04 PM   #58
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I know Bartsch was "not" listed as an OdR member in the 70's and early 80's. But like MANY joined at a later date, but when, I don't know ? Also this: even non OdR RKT's were given coverage in their Magazine upon their passing. Tom
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Old 03-22-2015, 07:12 AM   #59
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That's true Tom. I guess the ultimate proof would be his Odr membership book.

Regards,
Rudy
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Old 03-22-2015, 08:16 AM   #60
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Quote:
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That's true Tom. I guess the ultimate proof would be his Odr membership book.

Regards,
Rudy
It's very difficult to get info from the OdR these days because of the advance age of the members, but I will try to get what info I can from them about his membership. No promises, but who knows..... Tom
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