Anyone awarded both the DKiG and DKiS?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Yes, it seems like it. I was talking about a hypothetical case of a broken-down Bundeswehr ribbon bar - not the Thrid Reich regulations. And just to make it clear to you: Yes, the German Cross was ranked higher than the medal of the EK1 or KVK1. But the Order of the German Cross did not rank higher than the Order of the Iron Cross. And that is what the ribbons during the Third Reich symoblized - orders, not classes.

The deconstruction of an order into as many as possible sub-ribbons is a Bundeswehr thing (from the USA tradition) and is not compatible with the rules and regulations of the Third Reich. It is more an effort to have a big as possible plate of ribons growing on the left side of the breast, just like the USSR did and still does.

Look at this Bundeswehrspange of Erich Hartmann. Three ribbons for the Order of the Iron Cross. At least he had the common sense and understanding to put the GC in front of the Honor Roll.

[luftkreig]

Originally Posted by Dietrich Maerz

Look at this Bundeswehrspange of Erich Hartmann. Three ribbons for the Order of the Iron Cross. At least he had the common sense and understanding to put the GC in front of the Honor Roll.

Thank you for posting this Dietrich! Stunning!

Kind regards
Pierce

[speedytop]

Hi Dietrich,

"And just to make it clear to you: Yes, the German Cross was ranked higher than the medal of the EK1 or KVK1"

After we have turned in the circle, I can continue.

"The most convincing aspect for me, however, is that all the original medal and ribbon bars I have seen always have the EK at the first spot (no matter whether WWI or WWII) and none has a ribbon for the German Cross. And they are in accordance to the Doehle-ranking."

That is correct, and you can see thousands of pictures, where the soldiers wore the crosses with pins as originals and additional a "Kleine Ordensschnalle" (ribbon bar).

You can read it in Doehle on top of page 167:
"Auszeichnungen, die bestimmungsgemäß am Band auf der linken Brustseite zu tragen sind, werden an der Ordensschnalle vereinigt." (decorations with ribbons should be combined on the medal bar or the ribbon bar).
Only decorations with ribbons.

On page 172 you can find, that it was possible, to wear on civil clothing a mini chain (übliche Kette) or a mini bar (Miniaturschnalle), the mini chain with all decorations (auch Großkreuze, Halsorden, Steckkreuze und Sterne)!
But I must say, that I never saw regulations for the order of precedence on a mini chain.
That could be an interesting field of research!

And it is always a ranking of orders and classes.


The ranking of the RK, the DKiG and the HR (Nennung im Ehrenblatt) is clear:
First RK, next DKiG, last HR
Merkmale für die Wertung hoher Tapferkeitsauszeichnungen, OKH., 14.5.42
There you can find these three decorations in that ranking
a) Das Ritterkreuz ...
b) Das Deutsche Kreuz ...
c) Nennung im Ehrenblatt ...
DKiG: multiple exceptional bravery acts
HR: one exeptional bravery act
"Aber auch diejenigen, deren Vorschlag zum Deutschen Kreuz in Gold ausreicht, können außerdem wegen einer der aufgeführten Tapferkeitstaten für eine Nennung im Ehrenblatt in Frage kommen.
Es können auch zum D.K. Vorgeschlagene u.U. für die Nennung im Ehrenblatt in Frage kommen, wenn die Voraussetzungen für die Verleihung mit dem Deutschen Kreuz nicht erfüllt sind, weil nicht vielfache außergewöhnliche Tapferkeitstaten vorliegen, sondern nur eine als solche anerkannt wird."
Additional the regulations for the "Ehrentafelspange" of the Kriegsmarine (Doehle page 184):
"... Soldaten, die nicht Inhaber des Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen Kreuzes oder des Deutschen Kreuzes in Gold sind, ..."


This is the temporary end of my comments on regulations of the Third Reich.

Uwe

[speedytop]

Now the Bundeswehr and back to the ribbon bars of Bennecke and Hartmann.

Bennecke:
It was not allowed, to wear the DKiS after the award of the DKiG.
Therefore the DKiS is wrong on the ribbon bar. He could not wear both.
The ranking is correct, based on the post war regulations.

The question, where to place the DKiS in these post war regulations is not answered with the Third Reich regulations.
I cannot find anything about that.


But for the questions, where the HR must been placed, the answer is clear: Behind the DKiG! (please see my last Post).

Therfore Hartmann did it right, to place the HR behind the DKiG, contrary to the official post war regulations.

Uwe