Anyone awarded both the DKiG and DKiS?

[Gary B]

Hi,

If I recall correctly, if a person was awarded the DKiG after he had received the DKiS he was only supposed to wear the DKiG. (I think this was in Dietrich's book) So all those pictures of soldiers wearing both are in direct violation of the regulations of the time.

Gary B

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gary,

you are right. Obviously the pictures here show that at least two of the awardees did not stick to the regulations!

Dietrich

[markus]

Originally Posted by Dietrich Maerz

Here is another example from my book, Major Jürgen Bennecke. He also was awarded both grades of the German Cross and later served in the German Bundeswehr and had a very interesting and extremely unique post-war ribbon bar!

Remarkable that Bennecke also received the "Grosse Verdienstkreuz mit Stern" of the post-war Federal Republic of Germany (top award on the ribbon bar). Just got me a nice early and case set myself for my early "Bundesverdienstkreuz" collection.

[speedytop]

Hallo Dietrich,

"To put the German Cross in Gold at the first place is in regards to the (original) regulations not correct - the Iron Cross was always first."

No no! It is correct.

(25-mm-Band):
- Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
- Ehrenblatt-Spange oder Ehrentafel-Spange
- Deutsches Kreuz in Gold
- Eisernes Kreuz I. Klasse
- Deutsches Kreuz in Silber
- Kriegsverdienstkreuz I. Klasse
- Verdienstkreuz am Bande des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
- Rettungsmedaille am Bande
- Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse
...

See Geeb/Kirchner 1958 and the Bundeswehr regulations.

Uwe

[Dietrich Maerz]

I was talking about the Third Reich regulations. That the Federal Republik of Germany changed it doesn't surprise me. You saw my (original). Since the way this is treated is changing constantly (I guess today the wearing would be punishable ...) due to PC, we can only fall back on the only constant in this area : the original regulations!

[speedytop]

OK, please show me the original Third Reich regulations, where the EK I is placed before the DKiG.

The award regulations say, that you must have the EK I before the award of the DKiG (... die nach der Verleihung des E.K. 1. Kl. ... eine Reihe außergewöhnlicher Tapferkeitstaten bzw. vielfache hervorragende Verdienste in der Truppenführung bewiesen haben, ...).
Therefore it must be higher, and it is higher.

Doehle for example wrote nothing about an order of precedence in connection with the DKiG and the EK I.

I'm waiting for the Third Reich regulations with the appropriate evidence, then I will change my opinion.

Uwe

[Dietrich Maerz]

You don't need to change your opinion and I don't want you to change it. You are talking about the Bundeswehr regulations. I am talking about the regulations of the Third Reich. Apples and oranges! That is why I included the word "(original)".

There was, as you might know, no ribbon for the German Cross. This is an invention of the Bundeswehr in an obvious adaptation of the regulations of the US-forces. So I can't show you a regulation regarding the ribbon of the German Cross on a Third Reich ribbon bar.

But I can refer you to the Doehle where on page 168 under "Auszeichnungen mit Bändern" the first spot is "Eisernes Kreuz 1939 oder 1914" in general and no distinction in classes. He is talking of the "Order of the Iron Cross" the highest military order of the Third Reich, the Order of the German Cross was the second highest. I still have to find an original ribbon bar where the Iron Cross is not at the first spot (when it was awarded!). And even if there would have been a ribbon for the GC, it would still rank below the Iron Cross!

Maybe in other countries the regulations are different. Maybe in Upper Volta the Iron Cross would rank on 56th spot. And if you really think about it, the Federal Republik of West Germany was in 1957 a different country ..... in the Democratic Republic of East Germany it was not allowed to wear at all, I think.

[Nick Carraway]

I need five minutes to grab my popcorn...

[Tony T-S]

No no no, the thread is too interesting for a fight. These are great photos and information, thanks all.

[Ludwig]

Originally Posted by Dietrich Maerz

I was talking about the Third Reich regulations. That the Federal Republik of Germany changed it doesn't surprise me. You saw my (original). Since the way this is treated is changing constantly (I guess today the wearing would be punishable ...) due to PC, we can only fall back on the only constant in this area : the original regulations!

[speedytop]

My last Post (21) was strict and only about the regulations of the Third Reich!

And I was absolutely sure, that you will come with Doehle.

And there lies the mistake:
"But I can refer you to the Doehle where on page 168 under "Auszeichnungen mit Bändern" the first spot is "Eisernes Kreuz 1939 oder 1914" in general and no distinction in classes."

In this sentence is a distinction!

"Auszeichnungen mit Bändern" > Decorations/awards with ribbons
Here is meant only the EK 2, because an EK 1 don't have a ribbon.

The DKiG and the EK 1 you can find on page 168 direct above in the sentence:
"b) Auszeichnungen ohne Bänder: > Decorations/awards without ribbons
oben Kriegsauszeichnungen, Verwundetenabzeichen, ..."

First the orders that are worn around the neck [ a) Halsorden:], next the decorations to wear without a ribbon [ b) Auszeichnungen ohne Bänder:], and finally the decorations with ribbons:
"c) Auszeichnungen mit Bändern:
auf der linken Brustseite in folgender Reihenfolge von rechts nach links:
1. Eisernes Kreuz 1939 oder 1914,
2. Kriegsverdienstkreuz mit und ohne Schwerter,
..."

The Doehle description is not for a ribbon bar, it is for the wear of original decorations, divided in the three different types: Halsorden, Auszeichnungen ohne Bänder (Steckauszeichnungen), Auszeichnungen mit Bändern.

Not everybody must change his opinion.

Uwe

[Dietrich Maerz]

Uwe,

I have no idea why you are so insistent on being correct when it is evident you are not. Sure, the regulations of the Bundeswehr were different and that is, as I said, for the regulations of the Third Reich completely irrelevant.

To say that I was wrong regarding the original regulations you should show me a regulation were the ribbon of the German Cross in Gold was ranging before the ribbon of the Iron Cross First Class and the German Cross in Silver was ranging after that and before the Iron Cross Second Class. You know that is will no happen since there was no ribbon for the German Cross and no separate ribbons for the EK1 and EK2.

Actually this should end the discussion right here since the German Cross ribbon is an invention of the Bundeswehr and has nothing to do with the regulations of the Third Reich.

Dr. Doehle, by the way, is not only describing the original decorations (grosse Ordensschnalle) but also the kleine Ordensschnalle, resp. ribbon bar as you can read on the following page 170. There it is pretty clear that the regulations do apply for the "grosse" and "kleine Ordensspange".

"Im Kriege wird nur die - im Frieden für den kleinen Dienstanzug vorgesehenen - kleine Ordensschnalle, Feldspange, getragen, die nur die Bänder verkleinert, nicht aber die Orden selbst trägt."

Same sequence of medals, just without the medels themselves, only the ribbon.

The most convincing aspect for me, however, is that all the original medal and ribbon bars I have seen always have the EK at the first spot (no matter wheter WWI or WWII) and none has a ribbon for the German Cross. And they are in accordance to the Doehle-ranking.

And just to make sure: I am talking only about the Third Reich. I am not interested in the regualtions of the Bundeswehr at this point. Can we end this by saying you are right regarding the Bundeswehr? There is no need to discuss the Third Reich regulations as they are known since more than 70 years.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Is it correct to say that decorations worn without ribbons (in WW II) (i.e EKI, DK, KVKI) took a precedental order higher, according to Doehle, than those worn with ribbon (EKII, KVKII), and since the EK, as a class of order, was in 1st place, the ribbon order (if the DK, EKI and KVKI had had ribbons - which they did not) would have been: EKI, DK, KVKI, EKII, KVKII? The Bundeswehr changed this to put the DK ahead of the EKI, but behind the RK.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Apart from being purely academical since they could have done whatever they wanted, I think they got it wrong (if one wants to make a connection at all). First of all, the Honor Roll is too much forward, it should be after the German Crosses. And if you want to put one of the other orders of war in front of the DK you have to use both EK1 and KVK1 in front of the DK since either the EK1 or the KVK1 were prerequisits for the German Cross in Gold or Silver, i.e. not mix it.

But that would somehow signal that the German Cross ranks lower than the EK1 or KVK1, which is wrong. Using the same logic of putting the pre-requisite of an order in front of the order on the ribbon bar ( like it is the case on the Bundeswehr bar), the Diamonds of the Knights Cross would be behind the Swords.

The Bundeswehr bar with the invented ribbons of the EK1, EK2 and both German Crosses should be: RKs, DKs, HR, EKs, KVKs, ...

Dietrich

[speedytop]

I must be on the wrong track.

Post 12:
To put the German Cross in Gold at the first place is in regards to the (original) regulations not correct - the Iron Cross was always first.

Post 29:
... that would somehow signal that the German Cross ranks lower than the EK1 or KVK1, which is wrong.

Is it my bad grasp of the English language?

Uwe