A-SS Oberführer Otto Schwab's Tunic

[N.C. Wyeth]

Originally Posted by Peter Manzie

If all those guys are typical of that era, Schwab looks below average to me. Speer looks the largest relative to everyone else.

You really can't see a difference in size between Schwab and Speer in that photo???

I understand the [new] rule here is that one should no longer rely on opinion from a photograph . . . but the difference in size between Schwab and Speer [without question] seems quite apparent to me . . . ???

Maybe this is only a symptom of the "Big American" effect for you Peter??

[Peter Manzie]

Originally Posted by N.C. Wyeth

You really can't see a difference in size between Schwab and Speer in that photo???

I understand the [new] rule here is that one should no longer rely on opinion from a photograph . . . but the difference in size between Schwab and Speer [without question] seems quite apparent to me . . . ???

Maybe this is only a symptom of the "Big American" effect for you Peter??

Now that I am home looking at my monitor, not IPhone, he does look portly. No doubt. But the question remains, when was Schwab an Obfr? 5 or 6 years earlier. Perhaps he gained a few pounds / kilos. Not trying to defend the tunic in this. From the photos, it seems to have issues.

[John Pic]

Or Peter always seems to play devils advocate with fake items, there is a pattern.

[Peter Manzie]

Originally Posted by John Pic

Or Peter always seems to play devils advocate with fake items, there is a pattern.

"

[HERMSDORF]

Originally Posted by Peter Manzie

Now that I am home looking at my monitor, not IPhone, he does look portly. No doubt. But the question remains, when was Schwab an Obfr? 5 or 6 years earlier. Perhaps he gained a few pounds / kilos. Not trying to defend the tunic in this. From the photos, it seems to have issues.

Schwab became an SS Oberführer in April 1, 1943

Best Regards

Andy

[Peter Manzie]

Originally Posted by HERMSDORF

Schwab became an SS Oberführer in April 1, 1943

Best Regards

Andy

That wraps this up then!
Thanks, Peter

[chrisutter]

I don't think, on hand of it's biographie, that the promotion to Oberführer
is april 1 1943, it seems to be rather april the 20th. 1942;

... but of course everybody is going to say that nobody was wearing the black uniform anymore at this time...

I'm not sure about that, as they are some pics prooving the contrary and,
why should Schwaab not have upgraded his black tunic at this time, even if this remains most of the time in his wardrobe ?

[Dai]

Originally Posted by chrisutter

I don't think, on hand of it's biographie, that the promotion to Oberführer
is april 1 1943, it seems to be rather april the 20th. 1942;

... but of course everybody is going to say that nobody was wearing the black uniform anymore at this time...

I'm not sure about that, as they are some pics prooving the contrary and,
why should Schwaab not have upgraded his black tunic at this time, even if this remains most of the time in his wardrobe ?

Chris, if he updated his uniform in 1942, I think the Oberfuhrer's tab should be the 2nd patern...

[HERMSDORF]

Hi Chris,
My Mistake, it was 1942 for sure

Sorry, nothing to do with that Uniform but:

If someone is interested in this Man, an Estate of him is eventually for Sale. Hundreds of Slides from his WWI Experiences and WWI Technic and beeing "Engineer and Soldier" A Wedding Card, A signed Birthday-Present from the Chief of SS Personal-Hauptamt and his Patents, Papers of Special Military Developments, Education slides for Students, Books about Artillery Observations and so on... Only Slides, Glass Pictures and Papers.. But for Sure interesting for a Historian, so Schwab was a higher SS General.. It´s a full and complete Box. The Box was found in an Attic by a House Cleaner in Berlin 20 Years ago. It was maybe Schwab´s former "Dienst-Wohnung"... I know the the new Owner, he is old and asked me what to do with it..

Andy

[John Pic]

It does not matter what color uniform he wore in 1942 or 43...the tunic that started this thread is a humped up fake.

[chrisutter]

Yes Dai, you're right, with the exception that this is a black uniform, not a field grey.
Are we sure that the distribution of the first pattern insignias stopped at once, when the second pattern appeared ?

As the current owner of this tunic, I would also come back to the other points mentioned in the different comments.
I believe indeed that the tunic has been upgraded.
The tailoring work appears to be for a normal officer, certainly not a general officer, you're right John.

For the theory of the relined sleeves, I find however no evidence at all on this tunic.
The "analyses" appears to be unbalanced.
It's a given information which could be at best a working hypothesis, but certainly not given as a fact.

But I did probably miss the point, so thank you in advance John for instructing me :

- I would again ask the same question as Peter did, why should someone have relined the sleeves of this tunic ?
In order, I suppose, to make appear the (original) inventory stamps ?

This would mean that you take some original parts (the sleeve lining), in order to give credit to the rest of the tunic which would be a ground up fake (the point mentioned already by Peter)
- So, do you think John that the "Trikotuch" cloth used on this tunic is a repro ?

If it's not the case, what would be the advantage then to change the sleeve lining ??

And yes, Andy, you're right, Schwaab was a big men, not especially tall but massive, as it appears on several photographs.
The length of the sleeves is 62 cm, rather long for a tunic of this time and.... very easy to find the matching pair of sleeves having the same lenght probably...
The shoulder width is 47cm, definitely not a small guy even if this does not appear on the pics Andy...

I have neither an explication about the missing of the cufftitle.
Schwab has entered the Inspektion der SS Verfügungstruppen late, with the begining of the war in the end of 1939.
He was above all a scientist and one of the best artillery specialist of his time and he had been recruited by the SS as such.

But, coming back to the given theory of relining the tunic, why should one have made such an important work and give such attention to inventory stamps which few people cares about,
and why has the "reworker" not added a cuftitle, which everybody is looking at ....
The missing cufftitle appears to be, under this point of view, rather a sign of authenticity for the rest of the tunic. But this is just my opinion, not a fact indeed.
Best regards
Christian

[chrisutter]

fhh

[John Pic]

Christian I have two possible thoughts on this based on my experiences with fakes...the outer tunic was a shell and retailored post war...or it was completely remade from a pattern using correct tricot material of which many bolts of differing material survived the war and are being put to use in a variety of ways. There are unbelievably accurate fakes out there right now. I have a series of photos from one grouping...but Im waiting until the person who was almost taken to the cleaners decides whether he will go public or not with it. I have to respect my fellow collectors here although i feel it a duty to expose some of the things going on.

[A c h t u n g !]

Not even an accurate fake. Note in what manner the lower pocket flaps are sewed on. You would never see it on period tunics.

[chrisutter]

or sure John, your experience is very helpful and interesting.
No doubt that some tunic are completely retailored and,
You gave your contribution to this forum in form of what appears to be your conviction.

However, and this is not only my conviction but feedbacks based on precise observation of the tunic,
The theory of the resewn sleeve liner is not accurate and doesn't resist a close hand in hand examination or even some sharp pictures !

Now, you mention the possibility that "it was completely remade from a pattern using correct tricot material"...
frankly this is even less convincing as the resewn sleeve liner theory...
But I'm sure the pictures you mentioned will give a new imput to your conviction.

This tunic has been in my collection for now 12 years.
I purchased it from a small French collector who hardly knew what this rock was about, in very good financial conditions.
The only work I had to do, and this is a confession to Dai, was to clean the tunic and to add an armband which was missing.
I could then even observe the red colour on the black Tricot from the previous armband, something which can be closely
observed on the pictures showing the tunic before it's restoration.

Would'nt it be strange to consider the retailoring of this tunic, with the intention of selling it for a good price,
without putting an armband or a cufftitle on it, or even resew the award loops ??
No sorry, I can't be convinced by your conviction John.

Thanks for taking into consideration this pieces of information considering the negative orientated "mainstream" of this tread about this tunic.
My intention is however not to convince the sceptical.

Vielen Dank Andy for showing me the documents of Schwaab !
This represents a very interesting grouping for me and I'll contact you by Private mail.