Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Willi Z.]

Darn, reality really sucks.........but it came too quickly as I was just beginning to really enjoy the theater.

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by Glenn McInnes

Yes,only the elite Pz divisions ordered wrappers from this maker,at least that is what the argument will probably be..

One of the reasons why threads like this don't go anywhere and will go on endlessly for page after page. You know,the "textbook" collectors verses the "everything is original until proven otherwise" collectors.

One thing the fakers certainly know...There is a sucker born every minute.

Glenn

Glenn,

So two wrappers by the same maker and we can jump to conclusions? You guys really have no clue about me if you think I fall anywhere near the "everything is original until proven otherwise category."

I have always been at the top of my game in collecting. How many 2 of 3 known in the world items do you own Glenn? They are not TR, but American Volunteer Group, and probably quite a bit rarer than most TR items. I also own a number of non TR one-of-a kind items. So what? That is what I do. I don't go after the same things everyone else has. Steve Wolfe told me recently he used to see the type of Flying Tiger stuff I own back in the fifties right from the vets.

I am the opposite of a close minded textbook collectors who willingly shuts their knowledge down when confronted with something that makes them uncomfortable. Please, I like it that your all comfortable owning 50 of the same thing. I don't rip you guys a new one every time one of you posts the same old thing. I usually compliment you...something that has never gone both ways since I first came on this forum.

I do agree on the suckers quote, they go after the guys that really don't know their wraps.

Richard

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by Hasse.M

I will not take my wrapper to Peter tomorrow for more pictures.
Its not worth the time.

Yes,only the elite Pz divisions ordered wrappers from this maker,at least that is what the argument will probably be..

One of the reasons why threads like this don't go anywhere and will go on endlessly for page after page. You know,the "textbook" collectors verses the "everything is original until proven otherwise" collectors.

One thing the fakers certainly know...There is a sucker born every minute.

I offer my wrapper here for you all to discuss. But then I want a discussion. Not **** like that. Whats your point Glenn? Ruin another thread?

Congrats you did it.

Hasse,

I hope you take it to Peter after all....maybe a real discussion can go on.

Richard

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by Naval Enigma

I apologize ahead of time for this question, but I looked at the linked to wraps. Are they bad and made by the same person? I'm trying to follow this but got a little lost.

N.E.

That they are made by the same maker does not make them bad. Being a fake would make them bad, but at this rate the deck is stacked before we can even get started.

That is a shame...a few might have learned something....maybe that I am full of hot air, now we will never know.

Richard

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by Z19

WOW...Glenn when you drop a bomb on a conversation it's a big un!!

Alex

Alex,

I think anyone who truly knows wraps should be able to tell the difference between creations before and after the war. It isn't rocket science, it's dedication and first hand observation. I do not believe in the "super fake." Only those who are confused by their lack of experience and poor choice of mentors cannot figure it out. That is why all the wraps they can't come up with excuses for, are labeled as "super fakes."

Too often they hide behind "I can't tell because then all the fakers will be as smart as we are. Wraps aren't M-43's or just shoulder boards. Tons of people can't tell with shoulder boards and M-43's what's good or bad. I still make mistakes with boards, as they aren't my main focus. Wraps are much more complex, and sewing and tailoring has changed a lot since WWII . Old world TR tailoring and manufacturing remains constant since it ceased in 1945.

Many try to imitate it, but all they have to do is get outwardly CLOSE to fool the vast majority, which is their target victim. Those to whom a wrap is a small part of their collection or a dealer get taken in constantly. That is why I collect very few TR items outside my interest, which has been the same since the late 60's.

I think all wrap manufacturing details could be revealed and they still wouldn't get it right. Too many experts call anything they haven't seen a fake because it is beyond their personal scope of knowledge...therefore it must be bad, or I would have seen one.

Maybe I will dissect a Police Officers wrap after this thread is over, and then listen to all the B.S. as to why it is fake.

Richard

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by djpool

First I'm not making any comment as to originality of either wrap. However we have these wraps manufactured and decked out to 2 of the rarest and most desirable units in the German army. Coincidence? They are both lined in black which is fairly rare. Coincidence? Neither one is Depot stamped and the arguement for the lack of stamps is because they were commercially made. Coincidence? The truth is sometimes items got into the Depot system without being Depot stamped. The stamps on both wraps appear to be identical except they changed the order and location. Coincidence? Most commercially manufactured/PRIVATE PURCHASE clothing is not stamped in this manner. It was made to fit the wearer why size it? I think it was a requirement from the contracting agency. I've handled a lot of tailored tunics over the years and I have never seen a private purchase piece stamped like this.

I can't talk to all the fine points of sewing etc like Bryon, Glenn can but I have a strong belief the stamp is bogus and that the manufacturer wasn't in business by mid war.

Jim

Jim,

Who got to decide black linings are rare? I didn't get a vote, not anyone else I know either.

Irregardless of what is on the wraps in the way of insignia, the first order of business should be to see if the base wrap is original....and then work backwards from there.

I believe the reason these and a number of wraps I have seen that are not depot marked are that way BECAUSE they have an unusual piping or unit. The easiest way to avoid a wrap that goes through a depot is walk into the shop/factory or whatever, and say "I am a panzer pioneer and need to order a wrap with that unusual black/white piping." That is probably a special order. They take his measurements, which stay with the wrap through the system and match the owners size.

He returns to pick up his order....did it go through a depot? No...so why should it have a depot mark? What makes you think a faker would overlook something so simple as a "depot mark" if that would give away his wares as a fake after going to so much cost and effort to make the perfect fake?

Funny...I don't remember any fine points on sewing?

I think 90th Lights timeline id probably accurate which would have left this maker in business about the right time.

Richard

[Naval Enigma]

Originally Posted by Richard P

Alex,

I think anyone who truly knows wraps should be able to tell the difference between creations before and after the war. It isn't rocket science, it's dedication and first hand observation. I do not believe in the "super fake." Only those who are confused by their lack of experience and poor choice of mentors cannot figure it out. That is why all the wraps they can't come up with excuses for, are labeled as "super fakes."

Too often they hide behind "I can't tell because then all the fakers will be as smart as we are. Wraps aren't M-43's or just shoulder boards. Tons of people can't tell with shoulder boards and M-43's what's good or bad. I still make mistakes with boards, as they aren't my main focus. Wraps are much more complex, and sewing and tailoring has changed a lot since WWII . Old world TR tailoring and manufacturing remains constant since it ceased in 1945.

Many try to imitate it, but all they have to do is get outwardly CLOSE to fool the vast majority, which is their target victim. Those to whom a wrap is a small part of their collection or a dealer get taken in constantly. That is why I collect very few TR items outside my interest, which has been the same since the late 60's.

I think all wrap manufacturing details could be revealed and they still wouldn't get it right. Too many experts call anything they haven't seen a fake because it is beyond their personal scope of knowledge...therefore it must be bad, or I would have seen one.

Maybe I will dissect a Police Officers wrap after this thread is over, and then listen to all the B.S. as to why it is fake.

Richard

Great post. This material is obviously an incredible challenge, which is what draws people to it. I believe through the friction and dissent we can all learn something. I admire your willingness to keep pushing in search of knowledge.

I hope the owner reconsiders and allows more photos to be taken, at this point there is really nothing to lose, and it may help the case for authenticity.

One thing I did notice vis a vis the PzPio wrap and the GD wrap is the dice stamp measurements are very very close, just a couple centimeters off in a couple areas.

Are black polished cotton/black rayon lined Heer wraps extremely rare? Anyone have any more examples from this Mfgr?

[A c h t u n g !]

Originally Posted by djpool

Most commercially manufactured/PRIVATE PURCHASE clothing is not stamped in this manner. It was made to fit the wearer why size it?

Agree. Maybe it was just supposed to be an issue wrap.

[PANZERPIONIERE]

FHH wrapper with black lining.

[John Pic]

Richard, My Friend, Whom I respect highly and have shared a few off site exchanges of info with....I have to disagree with this paragraph...........

"I think anyone who truly knows wraps should be able to tell the difference between creations before and after the war. It isn't rocket science, it's dedication and first hand observation. I do not believe in the "super fake." Only those who are confused by their lack of experience and poor choice of mentors cannot figure it out. That is why all the wraps they can't come up with excuses for, are labeled as "super fakes."

The super fakes do exist...at least in the context that even some of the most skilled collectors get fooled and so I can understand the "textbook" mentality because if you see something over a number of years and it doesn't change you cant go wrong..but if suddenly at some point in time you start to see somethings that you never noticed in the past red flags need to go up...and since the moderator Glenn opened this can up I will say this, because Im happy he knows that there is a "Relics of the Reich" "bunker" in which faked uniforms have emerged..Ive never used the sites name on the forum but have experience and personal knowledge of what has gone on .
Im not taking sides in this debate but Its troubling to see so many hoping things that are not real are.

[PANZERPIONIERE]

FHH wrapper Rbnr # in pocket.

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by Naval Enigma

Great post. This material is obviously an incredible challenge, which is what draws people to it. I believe through the friction and dissent we can all learn something. I admire your willingness to keep pushing in search of knowledge.

I hope the owner reconsiders and allows more photos to be taken, at this point there is really nothing to lose, and it may help the case for authenticity.

One thing I did notice vis a vis the PzPio wrap and the GD wrap is the dice stamp measurements are very very close, just a couple centimeters off in a couple areas.

Are black polished cotton/black rayon lined Heer wraps extremely rare? Anyone have any more examples from this Mfgr?

N.E.

It is an incredible challenge, but when you stare at this stuff many hours a day at some point it either sinks in....or it doesn't. I go back to a time when I never saw a fake wrap. Real ones weren't that expensive, except compared to other TR items. I have always collected on the edge of the envelope, that is why many of my wraps seem rather unusual or rare. That is all I search out.

Close but no cigar...I see lots of measurements very similar. It isn't as though no two men can be the same from the waist up.

I guess it goes to what you are comfortable with. Black linings have never bothered me. They are all testable as to whether they are pre 45 rayon or whatever. Polished cotton is not near as common as rayon, because it was more expensive and not as readily available. Each wrap has to be taken on an individual basis. I have seen plenty of fakes with black linings.

I'm sure you remember when almost a dozen guys from the WAF went over my red piped panzer wrap, with the black polished cotton lining and black rayon scrap use, including you Not one person there thought it was anything but original, even though heavily worn. I know most are too intimidated to post, but I wish some would.

Richard

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by John Pic

Richard, My Friend, Whom I respect highly and have shared a few off site exchanges of info with....I have to disagree with this paragraph...........


Im not taking sides in this debate but Its troubling to see so many hoping things that are not real are.

John,

I respect your honesty, and would have it no other way. The only reason I am on this crusade is I saw too many wraps I know for sure are good, being called bad. I own a vet purchased wrap ferreted out of the woods by your buddy in Idaho. It was laughed at by the usual bunch, and he made me take down the photos. I know own it. It still had the IC FC pinned to it from when the vet took it. There are many more and I would be happy for you to visit my collection, and see whether you can be convinced to change your mind. I have no qualms about backing up my beliefs.

Richard

[Richard P]

Originally Posted by B. N. Singer

The sad reality is however, and I will speak for others who are well versed on this type of garment, that it is a ground up FAKE.

My reasons will not be explained.

My apologies are extended to all if no one accepts this as I mean no malice, spite or agenda against anyone.

Being happy with one’s collection is what should count the most in a hobby and you are the one to make that choice, certainly not me.

B. N. Singer

Bryon,

Therein lies the problem. You call it a ground up FAKE...and simply walk away. Of course you won't explain, perhaps you can't? You have just destroyed the value, to those that listen to you, of someone's property you don't even know. He doesn't have bad expert insurance to guard against such things. No one does. Who is to say who is well versed...you?

If he is happy in his ignorance, if that is what it is, why do you insist on commenting? Comment to those who know you and come and ask, and to those who you will answer...privately.

If you are truly happy with your collection....why will you allow no one else to be? Why try to humiliate someone? You call my items fantasy from one or two photos. I know your wrong, so I don't care, because I can prove my contentions.

How about Leroy's HG wrap...which you almost got destroyed from what it originally was. You totally blew that one no matter what you and Ramsey claim. You are not omniscient, and cannot judge with some super power. What happened on your SS wrap? Now we are to blindly accept your humble opinion after that debacle?

I take a lot of time with these things and greatly resent being told it is fake from one photo taken from a distance. I hate telling people their wraps are bad. You execute that judgement from your keyboard with four words.

Back up your contentions...or stop giving them. How about doing something for the good of many...not just a few friends? Let your conscience decide whether to keep destroying peoples stuff worldwide.

You could always P.M. them, and at least save their humiliation on the web. Many are not English speakers and have a hard time communicating what they mean perfectly with us.

Richard

[OSS]

I have followed this new thread with great interest as it has many aspects which are entertaining, much like a legal proceeding where the defense presents a case in order to depict their client in the best possible light, along with expert testimony while the prosecution attempts to condemn a dangerous character for the welfare of the public.

I find myself squarely behind the prosecution and I believe the crime may well be fraud. I believe there are collectors who have been victimized, who have invested large sums of money in the sincere belief that they are buying a rare artifact. The more I hear in support of the subject wrapper (the Defendant), the less I like it; I particularly enjoyed the "Jewish" contracters who only make uniforms for elite or obscure units. There are so many details wrong with this tunic it is hard to know where to begin but it sounds like we have only seen the "tip of the iceberg".