Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[phild]

In response to Jim's post above I will say that I have never met the collector or dealer that I would accept thier opinion on an uniform item as the last word gospel truth.

If a collector can not generally feel comfortable with what they are buying on thier own they don't need to be collecting that type of item. This is not to say that the ood example of something will crop up from time to time that any and all collectors are less sure about and need to get more input from others for the purpose of sanity checks what they are looking at.

I know that this next point will not get responded to but here it goes again anyway: It is a fact that many items that get verdicts decreed upon them either good or bad are never really proven one way or the other....so I have never understood how such a wiegh in by opinions from a given collector can increase (or decrease) their batting records in terms of knowledge one way or the other.

[Luca Ongaro]

Originally Posted by phild

In response to Jim's post above I will say that I have never met the collector or dealer that I would accept thier opinion on an uniform item as the last word gospel truth.

The same for me Phild.

This forum and many Friends and collectors here have been very helpfull for my knowledge and continue to be.
Personally I buy what I like and of course what I retain original.
What other collectors think is much important for me but the last decision is always mine and always after an accurate in hand inspection where I put a lot of attention to the materials used and the signs of wear, what is impossible to see IMO just by pictures.
This is the reason And is nice to see this why the "not sure" in the pool is so high.
Luca

[John Pic]

"If a collector can not generally feel comfortable with what they are buying on thier own they don't need to be collecting that type of item. This is not to say that the ood example of something will crop up from time to time that any and all collectors are less sure about and need to get more input from others for the purpose of sanity checks what they are looking at."

Hurrah! Exactly my feelings...ultra rare high end items...a pocket of money and a novice collector. The formula for disaster. In cloth start out with common known worn original items to get a feel for things.


On the Luftwaffe Medical wrap...the addition of the Falschirmjaeger badge was the hook to suck in a buyer. Also note in the description he casts doubt on anyone being able to judge by photos...very sharp.

[djpool]

Its great that so many collectors are born into this world with enough knowledge to determine at their first militaria show whats good or bad, without anyones help. I certainly wish I was an expert in every collecting area I have an interest in.

My collecting goals have evolved over 40+ years of collecting. When I first started George Petersen took me under his wing. I bought with absolute confidence and little knowledge of what I was doing. I was never steered wrong by him. Yes he is not infallible but he treated me right. He also steered me towards good stuff and away from bad stuff.

Over 40 years I know what my own strengths and weaknesses are as a collector. I can look at every area I have an interest in wih sub areas and rate myself on my ability to judge an item on the fly without my references or with them.

Rations Above average without references, expert with.
Army Panzer Wraps (wrap only) Average w/o references, Average + with references
Army Combat Badges General Novice
Tank Destruction Badges Above Average

Anyway the point is that I am so stupid that I will lean on others for help to assist me in deciding to purchase an item that I like but lack the requisite knowledge to actually buy on my own.

I believe looking at the forum that there are lots of folks who feel the same way. Just because you aren't an expert shouldn't prevent you from buying something you like. Just need to ask for help, look at the comments, weigh them when the opinions are mixed and decide on your own whether to take the leap.

Jim

Originally Posted by phild

In response to Jim's post above I will say that I have never met the collector or dealer that I would accept thier opinion on an uniform item as the last word gospel truth.

If a collector can not generally feel comfortable with what they are buying on thier own they don't need to be collecting that type of item. This is not to say that the ood example of something will crop up from time to time that any and all collectors are less sure about and need to get more input from others for the purpose of sanity checks what they are looking at.

I know that this next point will not get responded to but here it goes again anyway: It is a fact that many items that get verdicts decreed upon them either good or bad are never really proven one way or the other....so I have never understood how such a wiegh in by opinions from a given collector can increase (or decrease) their batting records in terms of knowledge one way or the other.

[brooksbz]

Originally Posted by djpool

My collecting goals have evolved over 40+ years of collecting. When I first started George Petersen took me under his wing. I bought with absolute confidence and little knowledge of what I was doing. I was never steered wrong by him. Yes he is not infallible but he treated me right. He also steered me towards good stuff and away from bad stuff.
Jim

I too am a proud George Petersen disciple of almost 40 years.

[Daniele C]

dont knowif it may be of any help for the experts but kai winkler has a heer jacket with spiess tresse applied like on this wrapper.

[Langemark]

Originally Posted by Richard P

Real or fake?

Richard

The eagle is real but used.

Mark

[John Pic]

Richard might I suggest you start a new thread on the wrap you've posted? With more photo's of the entire wrap. I think this thread has gotten worn out.

[PANZERPIONIERE]

Great idea, I would love to see it, Steve

[OSS]

There seem to be several schools of thought that have become apparant in the course of this thread:

1) Any real determination of the authenticity of German uniforms is ultimately unknowable because the period manufacturers were too diverse and the materials and methods used were too numerous. (I'm not sure where you can go with this outlook, probably find another hobby.)

2)These self appointed and pompous egomaniacs who have the audacity to impose their strict and narrow criteria on us, causing perfectly acceptable tunics to be open to scrutiny. Who do these people think they are and why should we listen to them?

3)There were many unknown variants of German military production. Who is to say that many of the items that are condemned today will not, given time, be proven original in the future? In the mean time they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

4)There are dark forces at work on the Forum. Secret cabals and fraternities seek to undermine my authority and nulify my credentials so that they can become the ultimate arbiters of militaria and steal the glory that is rightfully mine.

5) Reproductions have become so good in recent years that they are almost indistinguishable from originals, for many collectors they are already so. Any effort to undermine this industry should be taken for the sake of collecting and to preserve the integrity of the market.

I think most of us fall into one or more of these catagories.

[naxos]

Originally Posted by OSS

5) Reproductions have become so good in recent years that they are almost indistinguishable from originals, for many collectors they are already so. Any effort to undermine this industry should be taken for the sake of collecting and to preserve the integrity of the market.

Now, that I agree with and fully support!

[Glenn McInnes]

Originally Posted by Richard P

How about this HG wrap with nothing showing except the breast eagle, like Luca's and my wraps on the HG CG thread. It has tabs, boards, and CT. Real or fake?

Richard

Instead of singling out and baiting certain members why not post more photos of this jacket for all to see.





Thank you.


Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Originally Posted by Glenn McInnes

Instead of singling out and baiting certain members why not post more photos of this jacket for all to see.


Thank you.


Glenn

Thank you Sir; and I agree.

I note that one of his posts (Richard P.), specifically singling me out, has been tactfully deleted.

Does this fellow REALLY want to have Opinions on the example??

Talk about “agendas”, is THIS the kind of thing that is beneficial to forum members??

Regards,
B. N. S.

[Glenn McInnes]

Originally Posted by B. N. Singer

Thank you Sir; and I agree.

I note that one of his posts (Richard P.), specifically singling me out, has been tactfully deleted.

Does this fellow REALLY want to have Opinions on the example??

Talk about “agendas”, is THIS the kind of thing that is beneficial to forum members??

Regards,
B. N. S.

Not beneficial at all and why the comments were deleted.


As I and some others suggested perhaps it is best that he (Richard) start a new thread.






Best regards,
Glenn

[Gene T]

Originally Posted by OSS

5) Reproductions have become so good in recent years that they are almost indistinguishable from originals, for many collectors they are already so. Any effort to undermine this industry should be taken for the sake of collecting and to preserve the integrity of the market.

As a mere spectator to all this fascinating drama, here is something I don't get.

With the amount of money involved at that end of the hobby, provenance is presumably a must, and people who trade these things all seem to know each other. Therefore, every single piece of these extreme high quality fakes should ultimately be easy to trace to its actual origin, where the definitive answer lies.

My question is - if high end fakes are currently being produced, what exactly is keeping these skilled producers from being more publicly identified? If they are being shielded by those who knowingly profit from such work, then surely these profiteers and enablers themselves would be relatively easy to identify as well? The buck has to stop somewhere, doesn't it?

After all, unlike the original pieces, there was no chaos of war to disrupt the ownership sequence of the newly minted pretenders, and there hasn't been enough time passed for paper trails and memories to fade and vanish.

Or maybe I am just being naive...


Gene T