Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[djpool]

Willi,

As you can tell you struck a nerve. Your comment hit me as generally condescending and hypocritical . As collectors we have one common enemy, those trying to undermind the hobby by producing fakes and trying to sell them as originals. Each forum has its own personality and methods of trying to find answers. The FJ community in my humble experience is a much tighter group. Always has been. Its much easier to find consensus. The Army collectors are a much more diverse group and trying to reach a consensus is akin to herding cats. IMHO the problems with fakes are the same in each forum, even the avenues to try to find answers are the same. Whats different is the dynamics of the discussions because of the difference in the collector make up.

I know this post will probably piss you off, so I apologize. But as a Moderator aren't you supposed to be setting the standards, not fanning the flames that cause discussions like this to go off track. I'm just one of the rabble I'm allowed to go off script (a little). Jim

Originally Posted by Willi Z.

Jim, please note that I said "generally met with complete consensus" and why I said "generally". Thanks BTW. I also know how to use the search function to find what others have said in the past....

[djpool]

Leroy,

No offense taken. The illustrations I presented were very limited by design. I went in assuming that one maybe two Army depots contracted wraps with black linings and size marked them in white ink. Following that line of thought I compared the original stamps to the questionable items, assuming the questionable items were uncoded (but sized) items contracted by the Depots we know processed wraps with black linings.

I might have found original stamps that more closely replicated the questionable stamps if I looked at RAD, LW, Navy stamps etc.

Jim

Originally Posted by Leroy

Based on what Jim suggests in his illustrations (which, by the way, are very interesting, but I'm not sure always correct, just based on stamps I have seen on some common - and real - fliegerblusen - no offense, Jim!), as well as the other criticisms levelled here at these wraps, the answer would be "no".

[phild]

Originally Posted by djpool

This was also a nice discussion on FJ helmets.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=fake+helmet

Heres a recap:

Eric Queen -You all know I am not a helmet guy, but honestly, from what I can see, I can't see any problems with the liner and straps. The manufacturing, stamps, leather, etc. seem consistant with many unquestionable originals I have seen. As to the shell and paint, I just wouldn't offer an opinion without seeing it in the flesh. The pattern is certainly strange, but I have seen stranger. If its a fake, its not an obvious one ( to me at least )

Willi-I guess my conclusion is that I am not ready to say it is a total Czech repro based on the photos. The liner does not meet their normal reddish look. Certainly if Czech, it is the improved model......better pads, lack of the foot on the "1", etc. A hands on look would hold the key.

Peter S-I have to be wary when I see two very rare items come from a relative unknown dealer at the same time. With my current state of mind that just raises some serious red flags.

Willi- Hi Joseph, you make a very interesting observation. I looked at some of my FJ helmets and agree with your theory on the "3". All of mine (that had a 3, sizes 71, 68 and 66) had the flat top. Will have to further explore this theory, since they are correcting the "1". I could not, however, come to the same conclusion on the "6". I could not see a clear difference. I am sure the one you got from Bill is original.

There is also a special thread of 50 pages to help the FJ guys sort out E Bay fake FJ helmets. 100,000 views.

This discussion raised the blood pressure on a few folks:

" The matter before us is whether the Luft blue gray para helmet was ever produced. It appears that most here on the forum say "No, no para helmet was ever produced with factory Luft blue gray paint." (paraphrase)


I guess my point is that the FJ collectors are just as stupid as us Army guys!

Jim

Great comments.

Consensus does NOT equal truth or fact. There is and has been all along the overriding presumption on this forum that if certain people claim something is one way or the other way then in fact it is. This is the attitude that I have rejected for the 12 years or so that I have been on this forum. Cases must be justified and supported with facts or at least evidence. That process is authenticating 101.

Some of us know some, but not all, of the posters on this forum personally. Others may know none personally. This is not about "credentials" as there is no 3rd Reich collector certification program....and if there was I'm sure that it would be gamed like every other certification program is.

It has been posted MANY times on this forum (not by me) that not all opinions are equal.....that may be true.....BUT the weight or measure of an opinion is not based on the source but on the evidence or facts put forth.

There will never be 100% agreement on many items....this is true in every endeavor of historical and art related collecting and study.....BUT the facts must be presented and people must make their decisions based on those facts NOT personalities.

It may be a very human failing to want to find the God Player on any subject and rely on that opinion ..it happens every day in politics, medicine, business..you name....it has always proven to be a mistake......this is no different.

[Leroy]

Hi, Jim,
I would imagine that there is an "art" to stamping white markings onto black, since the contrast could make things looks worse than they might when stamping black (or purple or whatever) onto a more "neutral" color. Just going back and looking at some stamps that are in uniforms (with non-black linings) I know are good, I just noticed that all markings were not perfect, but sometimes smeared or looked like they had "bled over", or had varying "thickness" of ink even within the same number or letter. I think I remember seeing a photo somewhere (maybe at Peek & Cloppenburg) where a girl was the "stamper" and just looking at the work area and stamping tools, inks had "run" all over the place. Didn't look like the "most fun" job to have....
Regards,
Leroy

[Chris Pittman]

Phil, I absolutely agree with this post, your statements are factual and your logic is sound. The condescending tone in many of the comments in this thread and elsewhere on the forum is, in my opinion, totally unwarranted. Insulting people who see things differently for whatever reason serves no purpose and does nothing to assist any collector in the search for historical truth. What is the value of any post that ostensibly passes a judgement without providing any kind of information?

[kammo man]

Leroy ,
for many years I ran a screen printing business printing thousands of multi color prints per day using both water and oil based inks ........its messy dirty work....
But printing on black is the same as printing on white.
The ink is the key.
Oil based sits on TOP of the fabric ......water based seeps into the fabric.
Then it needs to be dried by heat.
Working simple manufacturing methods of garments is easy ....as long as you understand the process.
owen.

[Bob Hritz]

My few wraps are not those that will cause nations to collide over ownership. I do enjoy the threads as I learn a bit on each one. I am very thankful that there are collectors who take the time and trouble to point out their concerns or kudos to each piece discussed.

On a more personal note, I have found those posters, who I know personally, to have always been most gracious and helpful when I approached them with a question. I have yet to be ridiculed for making an obvious (in their more learned experience) mistake and they have always given me the detailed description of the problem. This has saved me much money and problems and I am greatful to many here.

I think there are always two camps of collecting. I have wandered into both and taken risks on items that were not of my expertise (should I even be so lucky to have a wee bit). Sometimes I have been correct and sometimes I have been wrong. Such is the dilemna for those who do not specialize in each collecting field.

Many of you know me and understand I do not collect for ego gratification, for investment, or for the need to possess something rare. I collect for the joy of collecting and preserving these trinkets for those who will save them after I pass to the Great Void. Having the friendship and camaraderie of fellow collectors has been my greatest joy. I look forward to the few shows I attend and enjoy seeing those who have been friends and mentors for the past 4+ decades. Should I be able to help a fellow collector, I am thrilled to do so.

I really want to thank all those who participate and each person makes a valuable contribution in our search for a clear path in a very tangled quagmire. Each of you deserves credit for tenacity and genuine quest for the truth.

Bob Hritz

[derka]

Originally Posted by Chris Pittman

...What is the value of any post that ostensibly passes a judgement without providing any kind of information?

My point of wiew is that every reader of this kind of post can make is own opinion about it, whatever he thinks it is a useless or a wise one.
If someone write silly or wrong things, or "unproven", my belief is that readers should be smart enought to identify those "defaults", and if they are not, it is their problem as individuals.
Both writer and reader are free and adult, so it is their responsability to use their brain, and not to be or to act only like blind or lazy "followers", hidden behind the "collector community" flag.
In collecting TR militaria like in many other areas of life, you always finaly have what you deserve based on what you did to get it.
Last point, why is it obviously so difficult for many collectors just to agree to disagree on this forum ?
derka

[phild]

Some collectors are more private than others and in some cases (maybe most) the most advanced collectors do not live in parts of a country or even parts of the world that facilitate their being well known via travel and meeting opportunities or in the epicenter of collector social activity......popularity does not translate into some kind of knowledge pecking order.

I want to comment about all of the posts and analysis of the stamps and markings....

I think that the discussion is worthwhile but I have never and would never accept any item based just on the markings...nor would the markings even
if perfect push me over to accept an item that had otherwise questionable characteristics. The reason is I think the stampings are the easiest aspect to perfect and may have already been perfected in many fake items....so I sort of assume it.

Problem stampings of course would be a real tip to dig further and some are so comical (mainly on older fakes when no one even knew what the stamps stood for.....I was laughed at in the early 70s for suggesting that the letters might stand for towns...for example in the depot letter date stamps....I'm sure that many will say that they knew what the letter stood for as early as May 9 1945 when they started collecting.....but I never ran into those collectors 40 years ago and forget any reference that detailed in the 1970s.

[phild]

Originally Posted by derka

Last point, why is it obviously so difficult for many collectors just to agree to disagree on this forum ?
derka

The following comment is not directed toward anyone on this forum, but I think that we all should realize that there is huge potential reward in being positioned as a gatekeeper or referee for classes of items in collecting....again militaria or otherwise. I'm just saying that you better believe that there are agendas with some people and these can cut both ways.....(i.e. liberal acceptance of fakes or draconian standards of original)

I think that most people are honest in their intentions and I guess that makes me a "glass half full" kind of person.

Like Bob H. posted, I am not into this hobby for re-sale, investment, fortune or fame.....I guess that does not leave much and often I have wondered why I fool with at all......but the journey is rewarding in terms of understanding and learning both within oneself and with the subject.

[John Pic]

"I guess that makes me a "glass half full" kind of person. "

Amen, although many would say that I myself am full of it.

[djpool]

Hi Leroy,

Obviousily there are differences even with original stamps. If you look at stamps by year by depot you can distinguish patterns. These patterns aren't absolute truths. When you consider that the Army had millions of uniforms and I only have about a thousand good stamps, covering all depots across the whole Third Reich period, the sample population is far from definitive. But it is what it is. Better than nothing but not good enough to be absolute. Yes there are many examples of sloppy stamping, too much ink etc. However I'm not so sure that the signature of excessive pressure was a major problem on original stamps. At least it doesn't come to mind.

In any case comparing the questionable stamps to original stamps was not really necessary. Seeing the stamping similarities among the 4 wraps produced by 3 different manufacturers helped tie the four wraps to a single source, not of wartime origin (at least for some).

Jim

Originally Posted by Leroy

Hi, Jim,
I would imagine that there is an "art" to stamping white markings onto black, since the contrast could make things looks worse than they might when stamping black (or purple or whatever) onto a more "neutral" color. Just going back and looking at some stamps that are in uniforms (with non-black linings) I know are good, I just noticed that all markings were not perfect, but sometimes smeared or looked like they had "bled over", or had varying "thickness" of ink even within the same number or letter. I think I remember seeing a photo somewhere (maybe at Peek & Cloppenburg) where a girl was the "stamper" and just looking at the work area and stamping tools, inks had "run" all over the place. Didn't look like the "most fun" job to have....
Regards,
Leroy

[John Pic]

"Experts" "Experienced" Going back to what some have discussed and not that I disagree with Willi Z. to some extent he is correct I like advice from those who have handled lots of material and those who reasearch certain area's .
I was reminded of when a certain "experienced" panzer collector approached the table at the SOS and handled and examined a Panzer Beret...he did this and left...returning four more times to handle and examine the Beret...when asked why, he said he was trying to determine its authenticity. How is it this same person can look at a photo of a tunic once and not like it but it took five visits and long examinations for that one beret ..unfortunately he was not allowed to handle it after the fifth time to make a determination..one look should have been sufficient if his skills are as sharp as one wwould think on the forum..personally if it were my Beret I wouldve let him look at all he wanted to and I am typing this to make a point not dig at the guy...the point being is that no matter if an item is made correctly its near impossible..then you have to look at the coincidental flooding that occurs...for a while there every dealer had SS officer tunics of all types and units...always the rare desireable stuff always mint, HG wraps,Generals tunics, every heer officer had an edelweiss added...coincidence no supply and demand. The hardest to fake..Heer Tropical first pattern..you do not see many fakes of that trying to be passed as real.

[djpool]

John,

Your absolutely correct about seeking out the "experts"and I certainly value the comments of folks like Willi, Glenn, Mike Davis, Bryon Singer, Bob Hritz etc. I would certainly be hesitant of spending more money then I'm willing to gamble, on any items these folks give the thumbs down to.

Whether we can ever reach a consensus is not really the issue for me. Everyone has a say on this forum, we certainly don't have to agree, however theres no cause to belittle follks who disagree. I'm sorry about my little Hissy Fit, I have the highest respect for Willi.

I participate on the WAF because its fun. This thread is fun even though we'll never be able to prove to everyones absolute satisfaction that the wrap is good or bad. The best we can accomplish is to get all the facts out there (pro or con) for folks to form there own opinion.

Jim

Originally Posted by John Pic

"Experts" "Experienced" Going back to what some have discussed and not that I disagree with Willi Z. to some extent he is correct I like advice from those who have handled lots of material and those who reasearch certain area's .
I was reminded of when a certain "experienced" panzer collector approached the table at the SOS and handled and examined a Panzer Beret...he did this and left...returning four more times to handle and examine the Beret...when asked why, he said he was trying to determine its authenticity. How is it this same person can look at a photo of a tunic once and not like it but it took five visits and long examinations for that one beret ..unfortunately he was not allowed to handle it after the fifth time to make a determination..one look should have been sufficient if his skills are as sharp as one wwould think on the forum..personally if it were my Beret I wouldve let him look at all he wanted to and I am typing this to make a point not dig at the guy...the point being is that no matter if an item is made correctly its near impossible..then you have to look at the coincidental flooding that occurs...for a while there every dealer had SS officer tunics of all types and units...always the rare desireable stuff always mint, HG wraps,Generals tunics, every heer officer had an edelweiss added...coincidence no supply and demand. The hardest to fake..Heer Tropical first pattern..you do not see many fakes of that trying to be passed as real.

[MLH13]

Originally Posted by Bob Hritz

My few wraps are not those that will cause nations to collide over ownership. I do enjoy the threads as I learn a bit on each one. I am very thankful that there are collectors who take the time and trouble to point out their concerns or kudos to each piece discussed.

On a more personal note, I have found those posters, who I know personally, to have always been most gracious and helpful when I approached them with a question. I have yet to be ridiculed for making an obvious (in their more learned experience) mistake and they have always given me the detailed description of the problem. This has saved me much money and problems and I am greatful to many here.

I think there are always two camps of collecting. I have wandered into both and taken risks on items that were not of my expertise (should I even be so lucky to have a wee bit). Sometimes I have been correct and sometimes I have been wrong. Such is the dilemna for those who do not specialize in each collecting field.

Many of you know me and understand I do not collect for ego gratification, for investment, or for the need to possess something rare. I collect for the joy of collecting and preserving these trinkets for those who will save them after I pass to the Great Void. Having the friendship and camaraderie of fellow collectors has been my greatest joy. I look forward to the few shows I attend and enjoy seeing those who have been friends and mentors for the past 4+ decades. Should I be able to help a fellow collector, I am thrilled to do so.

I really want to thank all those who participate and each person makes a valuable contribution in our search for a clear path in a very tangled quagmire. Each of you deserves credit for tenacity and genuine quest for the truth.

Bob Hritz

Well said, Bob.

Mark