3 KM Badges for Opinion - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Jimmy · 03-27-2012, 02:18 PM

3 KM Badges for Opinion Please .

Norm F · 03-27-2012, 04:09 PM

Hi Jimmy,

They all look like good originals. The finish on the LM Minesweeper is odd though, because it looks like there's some residual gilding on the waves where there shouldn't be any. It's possible it was heavily worn and then a long time ago freshened up with a coat of something gold and most of that has come off as well?

Best regards,
---Norm

BubbaZ · 03-27-2012, 04:31 PM

Hi Norm,
Pics are quite bad but all 3 badges look odd to me, the least LM Minesweeper.
I do not like the main pin on FO HSF, I cannot see a maker's mark and obverse details seem to be quite weak, because of wear?
JFS Destroyer has very strange hinge, I have not seen such so far on destroyers by this maker and I cannot see traces of replacement?
Better images are needed IMO.
Cheers,
Hubert

Norm F · 03-27-2012, 04:51 PM

Hubert is of course right, and I'm much too tired!

At the very least the hinge and pin on the JFS Destroyer has been replaced, or the whole thing is suspect - need better photos.

For the f.o. Fleet Badge, I had just assumed the maker mark was there somewhere in the murky darkness of the photo, but probably not a wise assumption without better photos.

I better go take a nap...

Best regards,
---Norm

Jimmy · 03-27-2012, 05:41 PM

Here are some slightly better photos, I do believe that stuff in the waves is crud or maybe a shellac.

Jimmy · 03-27-2012, 05:43 PM

2

Martin W · 03-27-2012, 06:39 PM

I think all three badges "could" be original.

The JFS Destroyer definately has a replaced hinge and pin,but the tophook and catch look good.It may be the lighting but i am not too comfortable with this badge yet.I would like to see an obverse shot in natural light and a close up of the hinge area.

The FO Fleet badge is of the type with the cast in fittings,and as is typical on these badges,the catch has broken off.

Regards,Martin.

Jimmy · 03-28-2012, 10:58 AM

Slightly better pictures outside on a 100% cloud cover day.

Norm F · 03-28-2012, 11:12 AM

Okay, I'm back to they're all decent worn and scarred originals (with the replaced hardware on the JFS of course). The finish on the reverse of the LM Minesweeper is original, and the "gilding" I wondered about on the wave pattern on the obverse is probably just dirt.

Best regards,
---Norm

BubbaZ · 03-28-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norm F

Okay, I'm back to they're all decent worn and scarred originals (with the replaced hardware on the JFS of course). The finish on the reverse of the LM Minesweeper is original, and the "gilding" I wondered about on the wave pattern on the obverse is probably just dirt.

Best regards,
---Norm

After watching these additional images I fully agree with Norm's assessment.
Main pin on FO HSF still looks a bit off since it is not pointed, is flattened at the other side (hinge end) and lacks a tool mark there, but it fits the hinge nicely so I would say that it is just not a standard pin rather than a replacement

Cheers,
Hubert

Norm F · 03-28-2012, 08:34 PM

Hi Guys,

Well, thanks to Hubert I've changed my mind again!

I'm not happy with that f.o. Fleet badge. Hubert's quite right that the pin is wrong. When I enlarged and lightened it, like he said the tip has been cut square instead of pointed like the usual ones. Sure that could have been cut by the recipient but more damning is the hinge end. Aside for the oddly squared wire, you can see two separate notches from the pressure foot of the pin - a smaller one farther out from the hinge in the proper location for these badges and the larger one closer in from the current pin.

Also the old pressure foot notch is strangely soft looking and combined with the coarse texture of the reverse and odd blob to the left of the hinge you have to wonder about a cast reproduction. Either that or a very worn pitted original with a replaced main pin. At any rate, certainly not a classic example.

Staegemeir has made extremely fine copies of the f.o. Fleet Badge, and although this one doesn't look like the usual Staegemeir versions, it makes me uneasy about anything not "classic".

Best regards,
---Norm

tyanacek · 03-28-2012, 08:46 PM

Hello guys,

The Friedrich Orth High Seas Fleet looks like an original to me, but I would say that the pin is a replacement. The pin being squared off at the hinge end does not look right to me. I can't see anything like that being done at the factory, where they would have had ample wire and a wire bender to do the job right. In my opinion, a customized job like this would be unheard of in mass-production. I also see two distinct impressions in the badge from the tension arm of the shepherd crook bend. This would lead me to believe that there were two different pins on this badge over the course of time.

Best regards,
Tom

tyanacek · 03-28-2012, 08:52 PM

Sorry Norm. I did not see your posting until I posted mine. I was a few minutes behind you on a similar line of thinking.

Best regards,
Tom

tyanacek · 03-28-2012, 08:55 PM

In this picture of the JFS Destroyer Badge, you can clearly see the remains of the circular boss for the ball-hinge crimp. (yellow arrows) It must have been ground down and then a standard sheet metal hinge was applied over it.

Best regards,
Tom

tyanacek · 03-29-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norm F

Also the old pressure foot notch is strangely soft looking and combined with the coarse texture of the reverse and odd blob to the left of the hinge you have to wonder about a cast reproduction. Either that or a very worn pitted original with a replaced main pin. At any rate, certainly not a classic example.

I understand where Norm is coming from with these comments. While I do share some concerns about a possible cast reproduction in this particular case, I have seen other Friedrich Orth High Seas Fleet Badges (that were completely original, IMO) exhibiting a dark, sandpaper-like texture to the reverse. I have seen this on the types both with and without the integral hinge & catch. I have also seen (what I consider) originals displaying a weak maker marking like we see on Jimmy's example. I actually owned several examples with this reverse texture and I now wish I still owned them as it would make for an interesting discussion. Maybe the key here is in the dimensions of the badge in question, as I have always found the originals to be very consistent in size.

I am posting some pictures of what is (I think) a "classic example" of a Friedrich Orth High Seas Fleet Badge with an integral hinge & catch setup. The badge is 57.31mm high x 44.27mm wide and it weighs 26.2 grams. (And I would expect an original to spec out to within +/- .3mm of these measurements, otherwise I would start to worry. The weight of the originals could vary to a greater degree, depending upon the composition of the zinc alloy used for the particular production batch.

And the difference we see between the badges with the smooth-looking reverse and the dark, sandpaper-like reverse could be nothing more than the base metal used in the specific production batch. Feinzink vs. Kriegsmetall: the darker, cruder looking Kriegsmetall most likely indicative of the final production batches.

Best regards,
Tom