wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Ken Jasper International Militaria Forums > International Militaria Forum

International Militaria Forum Rest of the World Militaria.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

IRA medals (new)
Old 04-03-2002, 06:02 AM   #1
Prosper Keating
Expelled
 
Prosper Keating is offline
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2
Default IRA medals (new)

This is really just to test the new image facility. Often referred to erroneously as The Black & Tan Medal, this is in fact the medal awarded for service in the IRA between 1916 and 1923.

On the left is the very rare combatant version with the 'Cumrac' clasp. Its ribbon and top clasp are missing but it is still a highly desirable item. On the right is the standard medal. Officer's awards generally came engraved while Other Ranks got unengraved medals. The reverse is plain, except for a leafy branch motif.

There was a specific medal for the 1916 Easter Rising which is as rare as unicorn sh1t. For obvious reasons, families hang onto them.

These service medals are also rare but the standard ones without the clasp crop up occasionally. They are not expensive because very few people even know what they actually are, thinking them to be some kind of semi-official commemorative medal, perhaps even of British manufacture, for Black & Tan veterans.

There is a firm making reproductions for sale to families with a rebel in the family tree but they are easily identifiable as copies when compared to the real thing.

Prosper Keating
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-03-2002, 07:38 PM   #2
McCulloh
Member
 
McCulloh's Avatar
 
McCulloh is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Mcculloh St.,Baltimore. MD.
Posts: 4,845
Default

Isn't there also a 50 year official issue commemorative for the 1916 Easter survivors? I understand that the original 1916 medal was issued unnamed, but that many vets. had them engraved.
I would love to see an example of the fake/copy.
Have you seen the PIRA badges that are now on the market? How about the UDA Commemorative medal?
Cheers,
JeMc
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-04-2002, 03:34 AM   #3
Prosper Keating
Expelled
 
Prosper Keating is offline
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2
Default

There was certainly a 50th Anniversary Medal issued to veterans in 1966. It is also quite a rare medal because they were apparently very strict about establishing entitlement. Or, at least, stricter than they had been when handing out medals back in the 1920s and 1930s when every auld bollix in every pub in Ireland claimed to have been at Bolands or the GPO "with Dev" or with "Big Mick". A lot of wealthy people and politicians also received medals at the time.

Ireland...corrupt? No!

As for the engraving on these service medals, I always assumed that officers' medals came engraved because the four that I have seen, including two family ones (real fighters with unit photos and jail time to prove it!), were all engraved in a very bold, distinctive block style. I have also seen a combatant's medal (Cumrac) in a fitted case.

To see copies of the medals, go to the screamingly funny "Your Irish Heritage" website on http://www.medalsofireland.com.au/. Oddly enough, when I asked them for clear photos of their merchandise, they never replied to me.

I have not seen the PIRA badges. Nor have I seen any Loyalist badges...except for a B Specials commemorative badge given to me by a B Specials/RUC veteran who ran a pub in London.

Prosper
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-04-2002, 01:59 PM   #4
Bill D.
Moderator
 
Bill D.'s Avatar
 
Bill D. is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,580
Default

A fine thread indeed! My grandparents left Ireland prior to the uprising (although the best man at their weding was kiiled by the Black and Tans for a curfew violation in the 1920's, and my Grandfather's brother was killed in Belgium in 1916 fighting with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers), but I have always had an interest in these medals. I helped a friend assemble an Irish collection that now includes the 1916 uprising medal in its original box (in which the medal rests on a multi-colored pad that is the Irish tri-color); the 1916-23 service medals both with and without clasps, including, as I recall, one with a clasp that was part of an identified group with documents and other items; and the boxed 1916 survivors' medal. It is a superb collection of Irish material. When I found something for my friend's collection it was always an internal battle with me to actually pass it along. Thanks for these great photos...."Ah...Sean Thornton! I knew your Grandfather, who was sent to a penal colony in Australia. And your Father, he was a good man too." ("The Quiet Man", with John Wayne).
  Reply With Quote

I'm an Irishman!
Old 04-04-2002, 05:38 PM   #5
Luftm40
Association Member
 
Luftm40's Avatar
 
Luftm40 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 5,740
Default I'm an Irishman!

Prosper/Bill, I have heard about these medals but never seen them. PLEASE drop me a post if you ever have a line on any for sale..
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-04-2002, 07:43 PM   #6
McCulloh
Member
 
McCulloh's Avatar
 
McCulloh is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Mcculloh St.,Baltimore. MD.
Posts: 4,845
Default

There is actually an Irish Medal collectors' Association over here (the USA) and several members are at Lowell on a regular basis.
I have seen several of the 1916 medals for sale. As "late" as 1994 I saw one engraved for sale for a paltry $300, which I suspect is now a bargain.
As for the Loyalist badges-you can still buy UVF and UDA badges in Belfast at the local paramilitary's H.Q.s. The same applies for all sorts of paraphenalia at the Sinn Fein H.Q. on the Falls and the old Sinn Fein house in Dublin. You can even buy one of the old UDA battalion flags from them.
The original UVF badges were well made indeed and well worth having.
Cheers,
JeMc
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-05-2002, 01:37 PM   #7
hawksy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I, would love some of those medals that were produced during the 70s, the IRA were very active at that time when i was growing up, a bit morbid i know but after all it is history.

Prosper, How did you come by these medals, we were always taught that these people were just a ramshackle bunch of hooligans with no organization, but i have got to say, what ever the British government said at the time, the IRA did know what they were doing and carried out thier plans quite precisely just like an army should, the thing is they were never recognised as an army.

A thread within a thread realy,

what is your thoughts on this ? Anyone

lee.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-05-2002, 02:21 PM   #8
McCulloh
Member
 
McCulloh's Avatar
 
McCulloh is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Mcculloh St.,Baltimore. MD.
Posts: 4,845
Default

I've met a number of PIRA members and known a few quite well indeed. They weren't much of an army in the 1920s and even less so in the modern age. Who and what they were/are like? Exactly the same types of characters who populate the fringes of this hobby and rabbit on about Waco and resistance to the US Governemnt and how Randy Weaver and the people who blew up the building in Oaklahoma were heros.
In England a number of the same character types inhabit the ultra fringes like the National Front and the Militant Tendency (if that even still exists).
These people can and often are quite charming and intelligent, but also have other emotional and character issues raging within them.
One of the best books I ever read about the real PIRA was titled Killing Rage by Eamon Collins-and they beat him to death for writing it.
How much effort and skill does it take to put a bomb in a bus, a shop or shoot unarmed people? Thats' not an army, but a type of criminal activity portrayed as political effort.
That's my opinion.
Also, I do not think we should continue this thread if its' going to turn into a debate on the merits of the PIRA and terrorism. This is because there are a number of people who post on this board who have lost family members to IRA attacks and other terrorist incidents (like New York City).

JeMcmoremad moremad moremad

Last edited by McCulloh; 04-05-2002 at 03:09 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-05-2002, 03:26 PM   #9
hawksy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yes,

I do quite agree with you, it was just that looking at the medals that were posted, you know these are IRA medals for people that planted bombs in mainland Britain.

To me living in England born and bred' growing up when they were planting these bombs in the city centers during the 70s' and so on, i can honestly say they do not offend me what so ever when realy it should, wish i had some of these medals.

It may sound like i am moaning, but when i post up something that is contentious but legitimate i get a right bollocking by some forum members before they stop and think what i am realy talking about.

JeMc,
yes should of been on the Der kneipe

lee.
  Reply With Quote

Irish Republican Medals
Old 04-05-2002, 04:54 PM   #10
Tony Farrell
Moderator
 
Tony Farrell's Avatar
 
Tony Farrell is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,723
Exclamation Irish Republican Medals

It should be noted that there is considerable difference between the original Irish Republican Army and the dissafected individuals who did - and still do, constitute the Provisional faction.
These medals are not given by Sinn Fein for blowing up boozers in Birmingham, but were given in recognition to the old 'boyos' who's efforts resulted in an Irish Free State - and the eventual Republic. I suppose, there's not much difference (if any) from the South African Oorlog Medal.

I do come across these from time to time [I think I have one in my draw somewhere], so if I see anymore, I'll let the forum know.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-05-2002, 07:42 PM   #11
McCulloh
Member
 
McCulloh's Avatar
 
McCulloh is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Mcculloh St.,Baltimore. MD.
Posts: 4,845
Default

Very true Mr. Farrell,
In fact I just got another one with the bar. I shall in all liklihood see another one at Dermotts' table at Lowell on Sunday. They go for about $15-$70 depending upon bar,engraving& quality (most are NEF).
There is a significant degree of difference between the old IRA and the present day Provos. However, not as much as you'd think. If you look back at the actual campaign reports (see Townsends' The British Campaign In Ireland') and the newspapers of the day, there were a large number of civillians murdered by the IRA-some in the most ugly of circumstances (like burying the captured men alive up to their necks on a beach and letting them drown as the tide came in). In fact the civillian casualties were @60% caused by the IRA and not a few personal feuds were settled by the label "I shot him because he was a tout".
A similar incident occured near Clady @ 1989 when an IRA man was executed as a tout but in fact had been bonking the local bombmakers' wife while he'd been in prison.
The ugliness of the Tan War however, paled in comparison to the nastiness of the Civil War that broke out after the peace treaty was signed and DeVelara's men burned Four Courts (and all those wonderful documents! Agggh!)
Cheers,
JeMc
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-05-2002, 10:32 PM   #12
Dirk
Association Member
 
Dirk is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 904
Default

I think I have one of the 1966 versions of this medal. I've posted a photo of it under my name in the tech forum and have been unable to post it to this forum. It came with the owners papers and box. It was unengraved on the reverse. Dirk
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-06-2002, 05:23 AM   #13
Dirk
Association Member
 
Dirk is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 904
Default

Hopefully, this image will post. Thanks Rick.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-20-2002, 06:55 PM   #14
molders
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sorry about the late reply on this post but I have been out of the country for a few weeks and have only returned.I live in Dublin and collect items related to the Dublin Brigade of the IRA from the 1916-1923 period.I have all of the Republician medals associaited with that period in Irish history in my collection.The 5 medals are the 1916 medal,created on the 24th January 1941.It features an image of the famous statue thats in the GPO today;"The death of Cuchulainn".It has a green and orange ribbon and came originally in a dark green box with"Seactmain na Casga 1916"(Easter Week 1916) on the top.In total about 2411 of these medals were issued,even thought its reckoned that only about 1700 men took part in the actual Rising.The medal was designed by Corporal Gerard O'Neill of the Corps of Engineers and made by the Jewellery and Metal Manufacturing Co.The two medals associated with the War of Independence are the 1917-1921 service medal,and the 1917-1921 service medal with "Comrac"(Struggle)bar.The medals with bar were awarded to those who had been on active service during the period.About 15224 of the medals were awarded with bar and 47,644 without bar.Both medals were created on the 21st January 1941.Designed by Richard J.King they were also manufactured by the Jewellery and Metal Manufacturing Co.
The 1916 Survivors medal was instituted in 1966 for award to surviving veterans of the 1916 Rising.The medal is the same design as the 1916 medal but is in gilded silver instead of bronze.About 968 of these medals were awarded.These are the most expensive of the 5 medals.The truce Commemorative medal was created to mark the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Anglo-Irish treaty that ended the War of Independence in December 1921.It is in gilt coloured bronze and at 34mm diameter is 7mm smaller then the 1921 service medal.About 19,000 of these medals were issued.
All of the medals were issued unnamed.I have some nice medal groups in my collection,including a 1916 medal,1921 medal with Comrac bar and 1966 survivors medal to a 1916 veteran and also his Irish Army officers sword from his service in the 1930s Free State Army.
Anybody who wishes to buy the medals should be aware that they are being reproduced both here in Ireland and in Australia.Also the badges used by the Irish Volunteers and Irish Citizen Army are also being copied.The Dublin Brigade of the IRA had its own cap badge,it was similar to the standard FF cap badge still used today by the Irish Army but instead of "Oglaigh na h-Eireann"in the scroll it has "Drong Atha Cliath"(Dublin Brigade)This badge came in two versions,brass for other ranks and white metal for officers.Again high quality copies of both types are on the market.These badges are super rare even here in Ireland.I have handled more Knights Crosses then I have white metal Dublin Brigade officers cap badges.
I have some of my collection on my web site and I intend to photograph more of it soon but as always time is in short supply.
Have a look at
http://www.citadelmilitaria.com/dublin.htm
for the a Dublin Brigade badge.I collect anything associated with the military history of Dublin form about 1881 to 1923.Hope the above was of interest and I'll get around to photographing and posting the Republician medals soon.
Regards,
Derek.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-20-2002, 10:04 PM   #15
Bill D.
Moderator
 
Bill D.'s Avatar
 
Bill D. is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,580
Default

Thanks for the information, Derek, and a fine website you have as well !
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com