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Cloth Headgear Forum Covers officer visor, overseas caps, field caps, and any cloth headgear.

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Old 10-13-2010, 08:33 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by piw View Post
Is there any clear contemporary photos to support the argument? Or failing that any oral evidence from veterans or workers who made the caps? It seems that as the events were only 70 years ago there must be a way of getting to some conclusive evidence.
There are certainly photos, such as the examples posted in this thread, showing woven trapazoidal insignia in wear on black WSS M43 caps. But what can't be determined from the photos are construction details, types of linings, etc.

This type of cap has been heavily copied and the quality of reproductions has improved in the past twenty years. Therefore, that is why so many of us are eager to see veteran sourced examples posted for review - that will help us separate the wheat from the chaff.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:36 AM   #152
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What do you think? looks like a trapezoid to me.

Adolf Reimann, 9.SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen.
http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/th...=Adolf+Reimann
May I suggest that one of our German speakers contact the author of that thread on the forum-der-wermacht because from what I can gather, Adolf Reimann is still alive and the author is a friend. He could simply ask the vet "did your cap have a HB lining?
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:15 AM   #153
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the cap is not original, trap yes
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:54 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Seb777 View Post
the cap is not original, trap yes
Can you explain why in your opinion its not original?

Last edited by piw; 10-13-2010 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Appalling spelling quality control
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:20 PM   #155
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Seems that the Hohenstaufen Division had more than it's far share of SS trap M43's.

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Dr Egon Skalka.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:27 PM   #156
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I know this has been a long and frustrating thread.

So I guess some may think that the period photos I'm trying to find and post are quite interesting but irrelevant.

But bare with me because here is my reasoning. I knew that I had seen period footage of SS soldiers in Arnhem wearing M43's with Traps. It then only took a few hours research to find these 2 period photos of Hohenstaufen Division soldiers wearing them who served guess where? in Arnhem!
When you consider that the amount of previously seen period photos of SS Trap M43 caps on the forum can be counted on one hand, finding 2 new ones (at least to me) is very rewarding.
So now, using a kind of reverse engineering logic, if one wanted to find a direct veteran sourced M43 cap of this kind, might it be an idea to ask around about the collections that have been bought from vets who served during Market Garden?
Not everyone is a cap geek so I would bet there's a few SS Trap M43's out there in collections but the owners are blissfully unaware of the controversy surrounding them. It would be just another SS cap to them.

It's probably a lunatic idea but as long as I can remember, this topic has been going on and on are we are no further ahead. Sitting back and waiting for a vet sourced one is going to take decades. A different approach is needed.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:51 PM   #157
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I appreciate all the pics you are coming up with Ben, it really does help. Are there any rock solid facts as to why my cap is a bad one or is it just hunches?

Regards, CM.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:55 PM   #158
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if only this one could talk Ben
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:09 PM   #159
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I appreciate all the pics you are coming up with Ben, it really does help. Are there any rock solid facts as to why my cap is a bad one or is it just hunches?

Regards, CM.
Mate, when it comes to M43 caps, 90% of it comes down to hunches and instinct. That's why it's such a challenge and why after 12 pages or whatever it is now, opinions are still all over the place.

Look at the photo above. SS M43's with traps, one stripped, ones with 2 piece insignia, visor caps stripped, some not and I know this photo well, it's on the banks of the Elbe in 1945. Then you've got another 65 years of opportunity to mess around with them!

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Old 10-13-2010, 02:21 PM   #160
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Yeha i know mate, just i am sitting here looking at a cap that may not be original and it cost me a sh!t load of money

Regards, CM.
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:21 PM   #161
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Im in the market for a SS M43 but at the moment -with cash burning a hole in my pocket - however very unsure about the guarantee of actually finding a genuine cap particularly from a dealer - very frustrating! This thread isnt really helping my decisiuon making either!

The photos are useful Ben - does anyone on here have an SS M43 or period photo with original factory applied stitching on the insignia clearly shown. All the ones I have seen have been re-applied by hand defo post war -which doesnt fill me with confidence when spending £2K + !
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:32 PM   #162
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Yeha i know mate, just i am sitting here looking at a cap that may not be original and it cost me a sh!t load of money

Regards, CM.
I'm aware that a lot of people are reading this thread so I have to be very careful in what I say.

However, my advice would always be to not buy any item or return one you've already bought if you have no or little confidence in your OWN abiity to judge as original.
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:38 PM   #163
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as period pics of SS M43 with trap seem uncommon,
i just aded this :
in an article in october 1986, in the rewiew "militaria magazine" n°13,
"la felmütze de la waffen-SS 1943-1945", pages 43 to 47,
Eric lefevre indicated than the black backed trap is most frequently encountered on feldgrau M43 caps than the felgrau backed trap.
here is an illustration given in this article :





pic legend is for a 8.Franz.SS-Freiw.Sturmbrigade member, taken in summer 1944.

if it can be used in this debate...

derka
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:42 PM   #164
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Part of the problem is not actually being able to handle these particular caps as they are not that common. Ive got quite a few heer M43s now and am beginning to know what I want to see but thats only come about by having the caps in my possession- although Ive made a few recent mistakes too! Is there a definitive database with detailed photos of 100% proven originals?
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:00 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenVK View Post
I'm aware that a lot of people are reading this thread so I have to be very careful in what I say.

However, my advice would always be to not buy any item or return one you've already bought if you have no or little confidence in your OWN abiity to judge as original.
The thing is, how do you progress your own knowledge on caps like this when even the more experienced collectors dont have a scooby whether HBT lined caps are original or not?.

Regards, CM.
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