early Bundesmarine tunic

[Seewolf]

Hi to all here

Last week i received this nice and unusual Bundesmarine tunic. In my eyes unusual because this one has 8 knobs and usual would have been 6 knobs. Looks like it is one between a KM tunic and the normal modern tunics.

The rings around the arm (Kolbenringe) are 16mm wide and the knobs are made by Assmann. The tunic is made by the taylor "Geiger, Kiel" and is dated 6.11.62 !!!

Is that now a tunic for a Kapitänleutnant ( early first style) or for a Oberleutnant (till today style)

I like this one very much it´s finally not one of the modern ones you can find so often at ebay.

Did i noticed all at this one or are there things that i didn´t saw ??

All comments are appreciated

[Seewolf]

Some more pics

[Seewolf]

And the last one

[Leroy]

A very nice BM tunic! Only differs from the standard by having the fourth button.
There are still only 3 actual functioning button holes on the front and no buttonholes in the lapels.

[SprogCollector]

Gents,
I'm reasonably certain the Bundesmarine officer jackets have always had just 6 buttons. Possibly this is a Handelsmarine or Wasserschutzpolizei jacket?

[Leroy]

[QUOTE=SprogCollector;418947 Possibly this is a Handelsmarine or Wasserschutzpolizei jacket?[/QUOTE]

Would those organizations have had the "line star" on the sleeves? Would really like to know!

[SprogCollector]

I'm not overly familiar with the badging worn by either Handelsmarine or WSP.
It could also be that someone has just added the 'extra' upper buttons to try and make a KM jacket?

[SCHUPO]

Originally Posted by Leroy

Would those organizations have had the "line star" on the sleeves? Would really like to know!

WSP tunics have a multi-pointed "police star" above the cuff stripes and not the five-pointed Navy "line star" as shown on this one. The Wasserschutzpolizei and Halfenpolizei tunics do have the 8 button front but will also typically have a police unit patch on the left sleeve at the shoulder.

I hope this is helpful.

[SprogCollector]

Schupo makes an excellent point. I would look for traces of different badges having been in place on the sleeve and also around the line stars.

Alternatively, look at the threads attaching the upper buttons. Are they the same as the lower six?

I have several of these jackets from the early 1960s (earliest is 1962) and all are essentially the same -- 6 button fronts with just some slight differences in the quality of the fabric used.

IMO, there is very little probability of a naval officer wearing this button combination.

[Seewolf]

Thanks to all for this interesting discussion

I haven´t found any traces of another buttons or replaced badges or something.
The buttons are all the same, same conditions and it looks really like that they were not added later.
Can´t it be that an old wartimer officer wore this one and wanted to have 8 buttons only because of a better look of this tunic??
I know that was against the "Bekleidungsvorschrift" but we surely saw some tunics that were beautified only for a little better look.
That is my little opinion but i would appreciate an ongoing discussion....if needed i can make some more pics

[Leroy]

Rüdiger - If there are no signs of other insignia, then your theory makes sense to me.

[Seewolf]

Originally Posted by Leroy

Rüdiger - If there are no signs of other insignia, then your theory makes sense to me.

Thanks Leroy,
i just took a time and looked once more at the tunic. There´s nothing unusual to find. No shadows of other badges, no rest of sewing cotton...nothing. That one is untouched and came in this condition from the taylor. Nothing has been changed.

[SprogCollector]

Very dangerous collecting philosophy to adopt, IMO. Your theory, as I read it, is that essentially it must be Bundesmarine because it's been unworn/unissued and has generic/BM style naval badging on it?

As it's straight from a tailor shop and apparently has never purchased/worn, this jacket could be just about anything including a BM uniform mistakenly produced with 8 buttons and refused by the person who ordered it.

My own collecting philosophy is to presume everything to be fake/false/or otherwise other than what it claims and make it prove its authenticity. Correct items rapidly make themselves known.

The Bundesmarine does not share the varieties of uniforms that are/were seen in the Kriegsmarine. Whereas 8 buttons KM reefer jacket variations were occassionally seen, I would presume the overwhelming majority of BM jackets are either issue items or KK items via contract.

[Seewolf]

Hi SprogCollector (sadly no real name)

I don´t think that i have a dangerous collecting philosophy because i don´t say that this one MUST be an early BM one. I THINK it is an early BM one with the unusual number of 8 buttons. If someone can give or show me an evidence that this tunic is total crap and has nothing to do with the BM i surely believe it.
I am not speaking this tunic well only for me and i don´t want to persuade you all that i am right with my opinion

What do we have here
- Tunic BM style
- 16mm Kolbenringe very early BM style
- 8 buttons instead of the usual 6 buttons
- typical BM taylor
- made 6.11.62

To be honest, when i saw that one on the pics (who were not really good) i thought of two possibilities
- a KM tunic switched to wear in the the BM
- an early BM tunic with unusual buttons

As i said, all comments are appreciated and i hope WE ALL can find out what i have here

BTW...it was cheap, so i never would have a loss of money

[Seewolf]

If i would have removed the upper buttons before showing......what would you say then about that one ?