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MP.41(r) info desired
Old 03-02-2010, 10:52 PM   #1
Ben R
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Default MP.41(r) info desired

Hello,
Do any of you guys have information on the distribution of captured Russian Ppsh41 SMG's, especially the ones converted to 9mm? There is alot of contrary info out there on this topic, and I was hoping to find something substantial. I am specifically interested in what combat units officially used these guns, and how their use was legitimized (were they entered into the soldbuch as an issue weapon, did the soldier have to carry it as a 'second' while retaining his issue weapon, etc.)
Obviously, from the tremendous photographic evidence, the Ppsh was used by the Wehrmacht in great numbers in Russia. But I have heard accounts of them being captured by US/UK troops in Normandy also. The 9mm converted MP.41R would obviously not be limited to a 'foreign' ammo supply, and therefore should be found in multiple theatres, as units were rotated. Even the 7.62x25 standard version (MP717, I believe) could use standard German 7.63mauser ammo, not as prevalent but certainly not unattainable outside of the Eastern Front.
Lastly, the Waffen SS in particular were renoun for utilizing captured small arms - vz-24's, Radoms, Hi-Powers, Beretta SMG's, etc. Can it be expected that they 'formally' used the captured Ppsh's as well?
thanks
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Old 03-15-2010, 02:21 AM   #2
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Gak ! nobody has any info on the MP.41r ? nothing at all?
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Old 03-16-2010, 12:23 PM   #3
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hi,
here you have something interesting about the subject :
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2695940
Great discussion about this adapter , post war production ... ?
I have heard about some german "eastern troups" who came to fort Gironde Sud at the Atlantic and who brought many ppsh41 to France .
Captured weapons like the ppsh41 were used regularly and officially in whole units and also registered in Soldbuch, but mainly in soldiers fighting in the "second line " .
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:27 PM   #4
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Thanks for the link. If i understand, then, all the Ppsh "battlefield pickups" on the Ostfront were used unofficially by the front line units who captured them, but then after rotating out of the east to another theater of combat they were turned over to army depots who then officially issued them to "second line" formations. At this point, some were converted to MP41r specs, some were not. Am I on the right track with this assumption?
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:10 AM   #5
Heinz Steinkopf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben R View Post
Thanks for the link. If i understand, then, all the Ppsh "battlefield pickups" on the Ostfront were used unofficially by the front line units who captured them, but then after rotating out of the east to another theater of combat they were turned over to army depots who then officially issued them to "second line" formations. At this point, some were converted to MP41r specs, some were not. Am I on the right track with this assumption?
Where have you found the evidence that PPSh41 were used on the Western front?
We all know that SVT40 self-loaders were officially issued, included in the Soldbuch and had their own Dienstvorschrift in German army. But I have never seen any evidence of SVT40 being used on the Western Front.
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz Steinkopf View Post
Where have you found the evidence that PPSh41 were used on the Western front?
We all know that SVT40 self-loaders were officially issued, included in the Soldbuch and had their own Dienstvorschrift in German army. But I have never seen any evidence of SVT40 being used on the Western Front.

Heinz ; I have a book on D-Day which when it came out one of the first things to surprise me was a picture of American glider pilots in a higgins boat on their way back to England. And don't you know in that higgins boat they had some souvenirs - couple 98k's and an Svt40 of all things.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:17 AM   #7
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Heinz,
The SVT40 would be far more unlikely to show up in Normandy because the 7.62x54r cartridge was not standard in the German Army. Huge quantities of this ammunition might be available in Russia, but in France it would have to be procured, supplied to the correct units posessing the designated weapons, etc. A complicated proposition, especially with supply lines being obliterated by the allied airforce. Even the 7.62x25 cartridge fired from the Ppsh would be logistically 'complicated' to resupply in France - although as I mentioned, the standard but relatively uncommon 7.63 mauser ammunition could be fired safely in this weapon. On the other hand, the 9mm was universal, and the MP.41r fired the 9mm cartridge from MP40 magazines via a permanent mag converter that snapped into the mag well of the Ppsh. Every german combat unit required re-supply of these items, so the MP41r was not a supply oddity.

For documentation, this is more difficult; which is why I asked for help here. I have read both in 'personal account' books, as well as articles on the internet about MP41r 's in France, some with vague mention, but the most concrete was from a gun journal which ran a shooting test on a "vet bringback MP41r captured in Normandy" with provenance/documentation

For myself, I have more personal reason than arcane academic interest - as a (german) reenactor and a target shooter, I wanted to buy a rifle that was functional at the range (not a blank-firing toy) as well as in reenactments(with a BFA). The imported German SSD weapons are very well made, but also very expensive for what you get; conversely, I have seen too many domestically manufactured SSR guns falling apart in reenactors hands. A legally modified Ppsh (SBR) , however, would seem to fit the bill - a widely used weapon, well-constructed and durable for a reasonable amount of money.

I just need to prove to myself that using one in a Western-front reenactment is reasonable.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:32 PM   #8
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hello friends,
very interesting
here is photo of MP717(r) adapter for PPSh 41
Original? sorry but I have only this photo
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mp717.jpg (27.3 KB, 240 views)
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:03 PM   #9
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I am examining an archives of an Italian partisans association and between their files I have found that they had many Russian smg (I think PPSh41) that they took from Germans.

They had also some "Russian semiautomatic rifles" that I think were SVT40.

These guns were of scarce utility for lack of munitions.

But these are only speculation because I have only some writings.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:57 AM   #10
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... and exist post war copies of MP717 adapter?
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:54 AM   #11
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Hi,
There is some...

http://www.aassniper98.com/index.php?choix=1186

On the left side, choose

Catalogue → Pièces d'armes → Russie → PPSH 41

(sold without saying it's a repro or an original... )

Regards
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan Gard View Post
Original? sorry but I have only this photo
Modern knockoff sold in eGun etc.

Good copies and originals - such as this one - don't have those rivets nor MP717(r) text.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:02 AM   #13
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Here is the original one found, treatment includes milling and even holes in the casing for greater gun 9mm Luger, otherwise the rest of the parts remained original, the barrel is significantly shorter than the original 7.62 x25 and does not reach the last hole. The designation is a classic, no changes
Hi Milan :-)



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Old 12-28-2012, 10:28 AM   #14
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I doubt they would function reliably with 7.63 ammo.
I doubt that stuff would be found significantly in German stocks anyway.

In recent years a number of M96 "Broomhandles" have been beaten o death or severely damaged by enthusiasts running the hot loaded PPSH ammo through them.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aktivisti View Post
Modern knockoff sold in eGun etc.

Good copies and originals - such as this one - don't have those rivets nor MP717(r) text.
Friends thx all for info

is mm + eagle right for original? and is 475GBP real price for it?
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