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General Wehrmacht Awards Service Awards ("Flower War", Honor Cross, Long Service Awards, West Wall Medal), Honor Awards and medal/ribbon bars.

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Order of Precedence of Civil Awards
Old 05-15-2003, 07:30 PM   #1
John F.
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Default Order of Precedence of Civil Awards

Does anyone know what the order of precedence is for the following three III Reich awards?

Fire Service Cross 2nd Class
25 yr Civil Service Honor Award
Honor Medal for German Welfare

Thanks,
John

PS: I have $10 riding on this.

Last edited by Market Garden; 05-15-2003 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 05-16-2003, 02:26 PM   #2
Daniel Krause
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So I hope You win.

Do You have a bar with all 3 together?

Actually all 3 ranks the same, the order of precedence just depends on the day this dec´s were awarded. 1st awarded one has the 1st place, last one the last place.

Best regards

Daniel

P.S. Just to fill the post here are the 1943-1945 regulations (sorry only German)

Eisernes Kreuz 1939 oder 1914
Kriegsverdienstkreuz mit und ohne Schwerter
Ehrenzeichen für Deutsche Volkspflege mit Schwertern auf dem Bande
Medaille für Deutsche Volkspflege mit Schwertern auf dem Bande
Medaille “Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42”
Kriegsverdienstmedaille
Tapferkeitsauszeichnung für Angehörige der Ostvölker
Kreuz der Ritter des Preußischen Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern
Preußischer Roter Adlerorden 3. oder 4.Klasse mit Schwertern
Preußischer Kronenorden 3. oder 4.Klasse mit Schwertern
Österreichischer Militär- Maria- Theresienorden
Österreichischer Leopold- Orden mit der Kriegsdekoration
Bayerischer Militär- Max- Joseph- Orden
Bayerischer Militär- Sanitätsorden
Sächsischer Militär- St.- Heinrich- Orden
Württembergischer Militär- Verdienstorden
Badischer Militär- Karl- Friedrich- Verdienstorden
Preußisches Goldenes Militärverdienstkreuz
Preußisches Militärehrenzeichen 1.und 2.Kl. am schwarzweißen od. weißschwarzen Band
Österreichische Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille
Bayerische Goldene und Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille
Sächsische Goldene Medaille des St.- Heinrich- Ordens
Württembergische Goldene Militär- Verdienstmedaille
Badische Militärische Karl- Friedrich- Verdienstmedaille
Weitere deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste im 1.Weltkriege in der Reihenfolge ihrer Klasse und innerhalb der gleichen Klasse nach dem Tag der Verleihung
Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges
Österreichische Kriegserinnerungs- Medaille
Kriegsdenkmünze 1864, Erinnerungskreuz 1866, Kriegsdenkmünze 1870/71
Österreichische Kriegs- Medaille
Südwestafrikadenkmünze, Kolonialdenkmünze, Chinadenkmünze
Schlesisches Bewährungsabzeichen, Kärntner- Kreuz und Tiroler Landesdenkmünze
Rettungsmedaille am Bande
Dienstauszeichnung der Wehrmacht (es können zwei getragen werden, und zwar die 3. mit der 4.Klasse, die 2. mit der 4.Klasse und die 1. mit der 3.Klasse)
Andere staatliche Auszeichnungen und Auszeichnungen der NSDAP nach der Höhe ihrer Stufe und innerhalb derselben Stufe nach dem Tag ihrer Verleihung
Deutsches Olympia- Ehrenzeichen
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 13.März 1938
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 01.Oktober 1938
Medaille zur Erinnerung an die Heimkehr des Memellandes
Deutsches Schutzwall- Ehrenzeichen
Deutsche Olympia- Erinnerungsmedaille
Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes
Orden und Ehrenzeichen ehemaliger deutscher Landesherren in der Reihenfolge ihrer Klasse und innerhalb derselben Klasse nach dem Tag ihrer Verleihung
Ausländische Orden und Ehrenzeichen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
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Old 05-16-2003, 09:35 PM   #3
John F.
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Daniel,

Thank you for your effort and the details. I guess if that is the answer then neither of us were correct and we both get to keep our money. Yes, I have a 5-place bar that contains all three, plus a 1914 EK2 and an Honor Cross, both which are of the non-combatant variety. The order in which they are in are:

1914 EK2 (non-combatant)
Honor Cross without swords
Fire Service Cross 2nd Class
25 yr Civil Service Award
Honor Medal for German Welfare

My friend thought the bar was in the wrong order and that the 25 yr Civil Service Award came before the Fire Service Cross. I will post a pic once my wife gets back in town with the digital camera.

Thanks again!

John
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Old 05-16-2003, 10:55 PM   #4
Mark S.
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I think the Faithful service decoration would be before the fire service cross.

The pattern I see is that awards given for service for the Reich always take precedence over medals given for..well..doing your job. This includes the Luftshutz medal, Fire service cross, Social welfare, etc

This seems to be the case in Wehrmacht awards as well-The pattern seems to be--

bravery
long service
'attaboy' awards
'been there-done that'

insert the hindenberg cross after the EK 2 1914

so after the WW I stuff, the long service medal, then the fire service cross. Reich before responsibility. I dont know how often a fireman would have the chance to wear a medal bar, but I would imagine errors would have gone unnoticed.

Last edited by Mark Schroeder; 05-16-2003 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 05-16-2003, 11:36 PM   #5
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Mark,

Aaaah...I hate to lose! However your hypothesis does make sense. Oh well, a fool and his money are soon partying !

John
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Old 05-17-2003, 11:42 AM   #6
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In that point the regulations are very clear.
(See my post above)

"Andere staatliche Auszeichnungen und Auszeichnungen der NSDAP nach der Höhe ihrer Stufe und innerhalb derselben Stufe nach dem Tag ihrer Verleihung"

All of that "Other" awards (civil long service, fire, Air defense) rank the same; 1st place has the 1st awarded. Otherwise the single awards would be properly sorted in.

So John, You guy should have gotten 1st the fire service cross, than the 25 civil cross and last the social welfare medal.
Please post a pic, it sounds to be an interesting bar.


Best regards

Daniel
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Old 05-17-2003, 09:58 PM   #7
Rick Research
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The ONLY medal bar that I ever had with one of those Fire crosses on it, I foolishly sold off years ago--

EK 2 1914, Schwarzburg WW1 Military Merit Medal (silver), HCX, Third Reich 25 Years Civil Service, and the "flaming swaz" Fire Dept cross.

I'd say that in any combination with BOTH the "Treudienst" and the Fire, the guy must have gotten the Fire for long service in a volunteer department as a part-timer. Usually a Part Time award ended up being worn AFTER a Long Years Of Slogging award (as in cases in Imperial groups with both a regular and Landwehr military long service award). But Daniel is right and literally, if this original wearer had his Fire one in '37, and the Civil Service not until the first awards in '38, and of course the Volkspfleges weren't created until '39 ...
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Old 07-24-2003, 05:54 PM   #8
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Just a query does this sound right to anyone for a medal Bar:

KVK 2nd class with swords
Fire Service 2nd Class
25 Year Police Service

thanks

Nick
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:42 PM   #9
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That would be unusual.

I don't know if awards of the Police long service awards were suspended at some point during the war or continued until the end... but 25 years with NO Honor Cross means a "copper" who joined no EARLIER than 1919... and a fresh-faced teen with NO just ended war experience would have had a tough time competing with the ex-servicemen looking for the limited police slots. AFTER 1919 of course... well, THAT doesn't add up!

Nor would this have been an OLD policeman, one who sat out WW1 ALREADY in the civil police... since Imperial constabulary was recruited primarily from ex-12 year enlistment NCOs.

It's possssssssible... but not very likely.
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:55 PM   #10
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Rick

Thanks for the reply.

It opens another question (see group pictured) I am 100% happy with.

Also suppose it was possible was the KVK with swords issued to police and would the Fire Service medal be issued along side a police 25 year medal ?

thanks

Nick

Last edited by Macmedal; 07-24-2003 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:33 AM   #11
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Q: did everyone who made up these medal bars have a copy of and abide by the regulations? I think not... Mistakes will happen.
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No medal bar from Nick! ???
Old 07-25-2003, 11:10 AM   #12
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Default No medal bar from Nick! ???

Oh, the naughty, sloppy totalitarians OFTEN got it wrong!

I often have seen KVKs--even with swords-- stuck behind a Hindenburg Cross like that. Since it was possibly given for something not particularly exciting and at no risk to the recipient's life, he may have valued his frontline HC more. Certainly the 1957 regulations did.

I don't see any problems with that VERY nice Fire/Civil Defense 4 medal bar!
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Old 07-25-2003, 12:40 PM   #13
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Rick, I should have posted his full group to Include his post War 50 year service medal.........
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Last edited by J Temple-West; 07-25-2003 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:49 PM   #14
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Thumbs up

misplaced KVVK, but the grouping is just fine!
What is the single award? Never seen it.

Best regards

Daniel
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:56 PM   #15
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Hi Daniel, I take It to be his 50 service medal... A long and loyal service to his country... Can you Imagine the things he saw during his 50 years, enough to turn your hair white....
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