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Detecting Fakes, relined or put together visors.
Old 07-23-2007, 09:32 AM   #1
NTZ
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Default Detecting Fakes, relined or put together visors.

The biggest problem in visor collecting is a reassembled visor. Fakes after a while get easy to detect but these can be very, very good and almost near impossible to detect. Any time you are looking at a general rank or SS visor the possibility that the visor started life as something else is very high. In fact you will even see this on rarer waffenfarbe army visors. There are a few different types of put together visors. Here are the two commonly encountered.

1. Fake exterior with a period interior
2. Period visor taken apart and reassembled with a new color cap band or a different piping added.

Now what do you look for to know if a visor has been messes with? Well here are the basics.


Sweatbands

The sweatband is a great starting point. Although you will find period visors with repaired or replaced (period and post war) sweatbands, this should be looked at as a red flag and a further examination is a must. The first thing I look for, does the type of sweatband fit the cap? Take a look at the shield. Is it marked Stirndruckfrei? If so this is a patent held be Peter Kupper and the sweatband should have a velvet band in-between the sweatband and base. Just the opposite also applies. Does the sweatband have a velvet insert but it not marked Stirndruckfrei? This should be a big red flag and a sign the visor has been messed with. Next, check the sweatband to see if it has been reattached. There are three common types of sweatbands.

1. The rollover. This is a sweatband that is sewn in and completely rolled over. This is the most common type encountered.
2. The half & half. This type is rolled over in front and the rear hand stitched to the base.
3. The Stirnschutz. This type was used by Erel and Clemens Wagner. The sweatband will have an oil cloth reed in-between the sweatband and base and a small bit of cushion material in front. If you see an oil cloth reed and it is not an Erel or Clemens Wagner it should be a red flag.

Once you determine the sweatband is correct for the visor, you need to look for other signs of foul play. Exposed stitching at the exterior bottom base of the cap just above or bellow the bottom piping should be a red flag. This is the most common mistake fakers make when reattaching a sweatband.

Next, look to see if the stitching has a good clean pattern like a nice straight line --------. If the stitching is all over the place this should be a red flag.

If you can clip off a small piece of the sweatband stitching you can also perform a burn test to make sure no synthetic materials were used.

You should also be looking for extra holes in the sweatband from use on a previous visor.

Sweatband post war stitching is easy to tell on most sweatbands, the only exception is the Erel & Clemens Wagner sweatbands. If done right these are really hard to tell. These bands are a one piece unit so to speak. The can bee removed from a cap with the reed and cushion still attached. The band would be reattached in two ways. First, stitched back on (this is how they were factor done) with the stitching tucked in between the crease of the oil cloth reed and the sweatband. Look for very sloppy stitching here. Another way was they were just glued right back in. I have seen this twice now. Obviously and signs of glue should be a red flag.

Detecting a reattached sweatband is pretty easy after you see enough untouched sweatbands. It just takes a bit of experience.



Linings

The next thing you should look at is the lining. This is an easy tell-tail area where you can identify a messed with visor. Here are the things to look for.

1. Are the pleats in the lining pressed tight to the cap and in their original position? There was definitely an art to the pleating process. The pleats in a visor no matter how well used should always fold in the same direction, be pressed tight to the cap and have a nice neat appearance. Look for signs of prior creasing on a lining. If the pleats go every which way or are not flush to the cap this should be a red flag also.
2. Check for extra holes in the lining. Any extra holes were the attaching stitching is should be a red flag.
3. Check to see if the lining has been cut at the bottom or shortened to get ride of the tell-tail holes. A lining cut with pinking shears should be a red flag or a lining that looks too small for the cap.
4. Look to see of the lining sites straight in the cap. If there are any quadrant marking look to see if they are center. Also look for a lining that is too small or too big for a cap.
5. Make sure the lining belongs. If you have a contract lining in a private purchase cap you know you have big problems. Also check the lining for any markings that may identify the lining to a civil, army, political, SS, Kreigs or Luft cap. Obviously the lining should match the type a cap it is found in.
6. Stitching. This one is pretty easy. The stitching attaching the lining to the cap should be in a very neat and symmetrical V-pattern. The V’s should be pretty evenly spaced and neat in appearance. This was done by skilled craftsman. Reattached lining almost always have poor stitching.



Pasteboard

Pasteboard is the material that is the foundation of the cap and holds it together. The pasteboard should be treated or in a waterproof material. There have been a few visors I have seen with untreated pasteboard (i.e. plain cardboard) but it was certainly not the norm or am I sold it ever happened. If you see plain cardboard it would be a big red flag for me.

Check the pasteboard for extra holes. Some times visor are restored and extra holes will be there but check for holes that make no sense, i.e. wreath holes in a SS visor.


Cap bands

Look at the cap band on a SS visor. Is it neat and very tight to the visor? Look for bulges at the top and bottom of the band were the piping meets. Is the band made of the correct material? Can you move it with your fingers or is it solid to the cap? There are red flags you can find with a cap band but you need to use common sense. Also feel the front of the cap band on SS visors to see if you can feel any signs of extra holes on the pasteboard.


Piping

Look close at the piping. Check for any signs of re-coloring or loose threads, sloppy stitching, exposed stitching, misshapen piping or in correct butting. If you are looking at bullion piping also compare to known originals and make sure the weave is correct along with the butting of the ends.

Shape of the cap
Look very closely at the shape of the cap. Does it sit well and look symmetrical? Look at the peak and the overhangs on the sides. On a lot of put together visors they cut the cap down a bit on reassembly. Is the peak too short? Does a private purchase look to have
more of a tellerform look? Do the overhangs look to short? This is one area that with a quick look you know you have problems and all these things should be red flags.


Cap size

Another quick check is the caps size. Look at the top rear of the lining tucked tightly in the lining. Is there any roman numerals (also check the sides as they are sometimes there)? If so this is you size marking. The Roman numeral VI would tell use the cap is a size 56 or 56cm. Now measure out the size of the cap following the sweatband on the inside of the cap. Do they match up? The size should be exact. Just to be safe I would give about 2mm +/- for stretching or shrinkage but nothing more. If the cap is not the right size you have some big problems.


Know your makers

Every maker has certain identifiable construction traits. There are way too many to get into here but study the construction techniques of the bigger makers. If something does not seem right for that maker you have a big red flag.


This is a basic overview on what to look for in a messed with piece. There is much more detail we could go into but is out of the scope of what I wanted to do here.

Happy hunting!
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:05 AM   #2
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When are you going to put all this data into a book or CD? Rick C.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenixpwb View Post
When are you going to put all this data into a book or CD? Rick C.
Get it now while it is free.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:41 AM   #4
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Great wademecum Nick
As usual you are the biggest
Thanks
Carlo
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:17 AM   #5
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Gentleman with all joking aside I am working on a project that I hope to have done by the fall. I am in the process of writing and publishing a booklet on detecting fakes. It will be my little contribution to the hobby. Right now I am exploring some legal aspects of imaging. I am pretty sure my butt is covered but I am double checking. The book will contain 100’s of color photos showing details of fakes, fake logos, signs of tampering, the whole 9 yards. Here is a quick look at what will be covered.

Section: I Reproduction/ Fake visors

Chapter 1 The beginning days of post war visors
Chapter 2 The Alteste
Chapter 3 The Janke
Chapter 4 Latvian made visors
Chapter 5. Other post war visors (including fake Erel’s, CW’s, Schellenberg’s, & Muller’s)

Section II Rebuilt visors

Chapter 6 Sweatbands
Chapter 7 Linings
Chapter 8 Construction, pasteboard, peak stiffeners, etc.
Chapter 9 Shape and what to look for.
Chapter 10 Characteristics of the major makers.

I am shooting for October
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:55 AM   #6
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im glad your on our side put me down for a book please keep us posted thanks for all you help
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:06 PM   #7
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Very nice write-up Nick, You're the man Looking forward to October
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:06 PM   #8
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Nice one Nick as you may or may not know , my visor collection is now down to a sum total of 1 (for financial reasons) & I am in no way an expert, but, another thing that I like to see in a visor is a mirror image of both the pleats & the zig-zag thread which holds the lining to the base, imprinted into the raw side of the sweatleather, as, even if the sweatband has been repaired at some stage, these indentations should more or less line up with whatever has been pressing against them for 60 odd years.

All the best with your publication.
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Visor Book
Old 07-23-2007, 02:31 PM   #9
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Default Visor Book

"I am shooting for October"

Thanks Nick, can't wait. Alex
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:38 PM   #10
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Thanks Nick for what you do for the collectors and the hobby.
I deffintly want a copy of your upcoming book.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:52 PM   #11
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Here is a little teaser. This is the preliminary cover. Yes the visor on the cover is indeed a fake.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Untitled-2 copy.JPG (55.3 KB, 4457 views)
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umlaut
Old 07-23-2007, 09:39 PM   #12
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Schirmmuetze....
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:05 AM   #13
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Hi NTZ,
first of all thank you very much for these inputs ........very useful and informative .......I make you sure I'll buy your book as soon as it will arrive......
But while I'm waiting..... I'd like to ask you:



Quote:
Originally Posted by NTZ View Post
There are three common types of sweatbands.

1. The rollover. This is a sweatband that is sewn in and completely rolled over. This is the most common type encountered.
2. The half & half. This type is rolled over in front and the rear hand stitched to the base.
3. The Stirnschutz. This type was used by Erel and Clemens Wagner. The sweatband will have an oil cloth reed in-between the sweatband and base and a small bit of cushion material in front. If you see an oil cloth reed and it is not an Erel or Clemens Wagner it should be a red flag.
Do you think that hand stitched visors are "always" post-war reattachment or on some lesser important makers there's the possibility they could be real and untouched ?
I ask you this 'cause I saw some visors with "long" hand stitches but there aren't any extra holes both in sweatband and visor (I mean, the stitches matches exactly the holes in the visor).......
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Giorgio
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
Hi NTZ,
first of all thank you very much for these inputs ........very useful and informative .......I make you sure I'll buy your book as soon as it will arrive......
But while I'm waiting..... I'd like to ask you:





Do you think that hand stitched visors are "always" post-war reattachment or on some lesser important makers there's the possibility they could be real and untouched ?
I ask you this 'cause I saw some visors with "long" hand stitches but there aren't any extra holes both in sweatband and visor (I mean, the stitches matches exactly the holes in the visor).......
Regards
Giorgio
There are plenty of sweatbands that were period hands stitched but I have only seen it on the half & half bands. The rear part was hand stitched. I have never seen a full rollover hand stitched before.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woelfl View Post
Schirmmuetze....
Good thing it is word format.
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