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Leibermuster Parka
Old 03-20-2003, 10:53 AM   #16
Basil
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Default Leibermuster Parka

Well, before the pictures were removed I did send a copy of one to a friend, and these were his comments:

"Peterson's book mentions he has a wintertarnanzug in
Leibermuster and that Francis Richardson's report on
the camo cloth only included a swatch of the camo in
smooth drill. Peterson feels much of the HBT material
in the Leibermuster was post-war Czech manufacture or
fakes made to replicate German war issue.

The 1954 Belgian Leibermuster is the exact same
pattern as the German but the underside of the
material is an ochre red. A sure fire way to tell if
an item was made from this stuff!

To be honest, I think the guy who bought that got
ripped off. If you examine the pictures of German
Leibermuster, the white specks are from the green
color plate being allowed to slip. Thus, the white
conforms to the green. Notice how in the parka, the
white splotches are on their own. I base this
observation on looking at the images in Peterson's
book and Borsarello's "Camouflage Uniforms of European
and NATO Armies:1945 to the Present". The Belgian
pattern has an absence of the white while the Swiss
Leibermuster does have "free floating" white
splotches.

Basically, I feel the guy paid for a parka made from
Swiss camo."



I make no claims to be an expert on German camo, and what I know comes from books, but what do forum members think?

Last edited by Gary Wood; 03-20-2003 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 03-20-2003, 09:22 PM   #17
Panzer
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Hi Gary,
sorry, but your friend is missinformed. The 1954 pattern used by the Belgians is nothing like Leibermuster. The M1954 pattern is a "broad brush stroke" pattern like the Rodesian camouflage pattern and was replaced by a pattern reffered to as "jigsaw pattern". The Swiss pattern has been shown before to be incomprable to the period leiber pattern also.

With respect..... this strange disbelief would disolves once the jacket is handled. This is NOT a jacket made as a replica, it is genuinely old with absolutely NO artificial aging, the markings are legitimate and period and the whole jacket is German period constuction right down to the lace strings in the hood which are identical to those found in any german WW2 parka. It even has evidence in various places of cloth fatigue where the material just breaks in small patches from age....soething that to the trained eye is obviously not artificial. Nothing out of place, nothing making it doubtful.

The author believes that also the Leibermuster HBT is repro....so is there any genuine Leibermuster out there according to that person?
Until recently we had not even seen any photographs of Leibermuster in wear...now we have at least one photo of it in use at the front in 1945, we have evidence of several units that were issued some and we have eyewitness testimony to it being worn. I believe that it is extreemly rare but existed and that the parka under discussion is a test piece, having obvious economy adjustments to improve performance and shorten manufacture (ie: the lack of an opening front to make it a pull-over like a smock). Can you imagine a faker doing this and hoping it is accepted as genuine? No...it would be made as per a regular parker.

I have handled the parka, and it is a 100% German made and marked period piece. It will just take some more concrete period photos or documents surfacing to silence the doubters.

Cheers, Wade K.
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Wintertarnanzug
Old 03-21-2003, 12:38 AM   #18
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Default Wintertarnanzug

Greetings:

I'm the guy who replied that I felt the parka was not genuine. My comments were posted before my request to join the forum was approved. I base my opinion on two primary sources of information on camouflage. One is Daniel Peterson's "Waffen SS Camouflage Uniforms & Post-War Derivatives" and J.F. Borsarello's "Camouflage Uniforms of European and NATO Armies 1945 to the Present".

I want to say that I have not handled the parka in question. This is obvious. So, my observations are based solely on the scans which were posted, of which only the one remains. To this, I compared to the original leibermuster photographs seen in these two books, of which the authors claim are genuine. In all cases, the pattern does not match that shown in the parka.

According to Peterson ( who says that he has a leibermuster wintertarnanzug in the smooth drill and that another exists in France ), the main source for information ( at the time of the writing, 1995 ) on the leibermuster pattern comes from a July 20, 1945 report by U.S. Army Quartermaster Francis S. Richardson. In the report, Richardson states that the material was time consuming to produce to the dyes, was developed by Professor Schick, and was intended for wintertarnanzug and zeltbahnen. Included with his report was a swatch of the cloth, made from smooth drill. There is no mention in his report of the camo being made of HBT. Peterson believes that the HBT leibermuster originated in Eastern Europe and some are modern fakes. He also says that he feels they could be immediate post-war Czech issue ( which continued to produce a varient of the leibermuster into 1950 ). Peterson does say that those items made from leibermuster are often faded, in some cases, heavily, and quite worn, and were likely produced after the war for general clothing from stocks of the cloth. His book shows a M44-style tunic, heavily faded, made of HBT leibermuster with the RB stampings on the inside, bottom of the front left panel. You can see a scan of this camo at the following URL:

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/ger_hbt.jpg

Borsarello has a genuine German leibermuster uniform in his collection. According to him, the markings are RZ N 60/0135/5043. To see it, go here:

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/ger_leib.jpg

Now, post-war, the Belgians developed a camouflage uniform which was a near identical copy of the German leibermuster in 1955. Manufactured by the Belgian firm ABL, the uniform was apparently not used by the Belgians and instead, stocks of the uniform were sold to Germany and used for a brief time by the Bundeswehr. The camo was also used for zeltbahn. Perhaps due to the relation to the SS, the Bundeswehr dropped the pattern within a year, replacing it in 1956 with a Heer-inspired splinter pattern.

You can see two views of the Belgian leibermuster here:

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/belgian1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/belgian2.jpg

Now, if you examine the photographs ( I scanned them as best as possible to maintain a reasonable file size ), you will notice that you do not see any "free floating" white colors. Instead, in the German pattern, the white comes from the green color plate slipping, causing the print to not mark the material.

The Swiss, in 1955, also adopted the leibermuster pattern and used it into 1995. Unlike the German pattern, the white markings were instead "free floating" and not created by allowing the plate to slip. Examples of the Swiss pattern, can be seen here:

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/swiss_1.jpg ( the first Swiss issue, based on the Bundeswehr uniform )

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/swiss_2.jpg ( swatch of a later print )

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/swistent.jpg ( Swiss pattern used for tents )

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/swisslgt.jpg ( Swiss light summer uniform pattern used from 1978 to 1980 )

So, a number of varients exist of the Swiss leibermuster. But in all cases, they have the trait of having the white colorations independent of the green hue.

From this, I based my comments about the parka. One thing I noticed about the parka was the absence of the storm flap and that the buttons were smooth and not pebbled. Also, the relative "newness" of the item in terms of appearence. And again, the pattern does not match the original German leibermuster which the above two authors have in their collections.

This is _not_ to say the item is not legitimate. But in a collecting world where German camouflage, especially something as rare as leibermuster, a faker could well invest alot of time into replicating a parka because the return on the time and money in terms of sale price would make it worth the effort. And because he would not have access to genuine material in the quantity needed to make a parka, a substitute would have to be had. A HBT leibermuster cap appeared on eBay a year or two ago and sold for over $1,500. I wager it was made post-war from the material. The fact the seller seemed to have added a SS skull on it didn't endear it to me as being wartime issue.

Regardless, a photograph of the camo in use by the SS or Heer would be the ideal means to see what the pattern was like. I think we all know the SS had all manner of camo patterns and this parka may very well be a varient of the leibermuster design and if this is so, it adds a new chapter to the history of German wartime camouflage.

Regards,

Ed
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Old 03-21-2003, 01:49 AM   #19
Panzer
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Hi Ed,
thanks for your entry. I feel the discussion is flawed in a few points. Firstly that Peterson's book is made in 1995 and therefore written in 1994....so it is basically outdated by new infomation. The Richardson report is naturally not completely reliable as it is 1945 and much has been discovered since then.

The fact is that neither the Belgian material or the Swiss is like this material. There are direct comparisons with original swatches obtained by one of the leading authorities on this subject (who's items are numerous in Beaver's books) and the cloth of this parka. Absolute direct compairsons on all colour printing panels. he has also examined photos of the parka in detail and pronounced it a wonderful piece.

I can't speak for the HBT as I have never owned a set, although I have examined a few sets in European collections. I believe they are NOT Czech material, as whilst they are valuable they have not appeared in any sort of numbers to make it worthwhile and there is now direct photographic evidence available which has certainly come to light since the publication of either Peterson's or or Borsarello's books. There is way too much new infomation on this subject for these books to be considered "gospel"....Michael Beaver's books for a start. The original material examples appear in there.

At the end of the day I agree with the present owner that hands on examination absolutely kills any argument that this is not a German manufactured WW2 period garment. It is experimental for sure....with the no button front and the missing crutch flap.....and is therefore an odd piece for people to understand.

Cheers, Wade K.
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Old 03-21-2003, 03:16 AM   #20
Gary Wood
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Question

"Hi Gary,
sorry, but your friend is missinformed. "

Wade ,
what are you talking about????????????
cheers,
gary
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Old 03-21-2003, 03:18 AM   #21
Gary Wood
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Ed (pelzig) ,
welcome to the forum,
cheers,
Gary
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Old 03-21-2003, 03:39 AM   #22
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Hi Gary,
sorry...but entry at the top to Basil didn't have a name at the end except "last edited Gary Wood"...so in my haste I just typed that. Sorry.
Cheers, Wade.
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Old 03-21-2003, 03:43 AM   #23
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Hi Gary,
sorry...but entry at the top to Basil didn't have a name at the end except "last edited Gary Wood"...so in my haste I just typed that. Sorry.
Cheers, Wade.

Wade,
OK now I see the confusion,
cheers,
Gary
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Old 03-21-2003, 07:05 AM   #24
Tony Barto
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Hi Ed;

Welcome to the forum! Always nice to have a fellow Buckeye on board!!
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Tony
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Old 03-22-2003, 12:19 AM   #25
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Gentlemen,
I have been following the posts on this subject with more than a little confusion. It seems that there are a number of arguments both for and against. The most commonly seen type is the HBT which seems to be in the most contention. What strikes me the most is the fact that the winter pattern in the Beaver and Borssarello has a slightly different cammo pattern. In fact if you look at the Winter parka pictured, the cammo pattern is identical. If you look closely you can identify the fact that the second black roller used for the disruption of pattern, is even oriented exactly the same. Also, the telltale white dots that seem to be so telltale to fakery are exactly alike. So with said, is the Winter parka pictured in the book a fake???? If it is not, then could the parka pictured from Peters site be real? It seems that at this point its one way or the other.

Mike
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MORE RARA PICS
Old 03-25-2003, 04:44 PM   #26
werner p.
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Default MORE RARA PICS

Here are some more pics of Leibermuster items, you can find better pics in my book on WH CAMO

Including the SECOND known pic of a soldier in Leibermuster camo pants. This pic is not in my book , because the editor judged it was delivered too late to include it .....

I leave it to the people who actually saw the parka to judge it original or not, I received the pic from Borsarello and he said the item was genuine !

Werner








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sorry last 4 pics did not came thru
Old 03-25-2003, 04:48 PM   #27
werner p.
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Default sorry last 4 pics did not came thru




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NO REACTIONS ????
Old 04-04-2003, 11:17 AM   #28
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Default NO REACTIONS ????

c'mon guys , someone must have thoughts about this ??

Werner
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Old 04-04-2003, 03:26 PM   #29
D. Löwenhamn
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Smile

Yes, I have. I notice that the soldier on the photo is a sniper. As you perhaps know I'm doing research about German snipers. What information do you have about it? I would also appreciate it if you would like to email me that photo.

The other photos were also very nice by the way.

Best regards/ Daniel
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leibermuster
Old 04-04-2003, 04:03 PM   #30
JOHN VD HEIJDEN
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Default leibermuster

hello i have seen the book from the whermacht camouflage
i find the colluors not so good in this book(IMO) because i have seen several pieces in real life that was showed in this book
and the collours don,t match when you take the piece and compared it with the foto

with best regards john van der heijden

p.s is there any evidence from soldiers that worn leibermuster
during the war??
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