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1939 EK2 pakcet by Louis Gottlieb & Soehne
Old 01-06-2007, 03:48 PM   #1
torstenbel
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Question 1939 EK2 pakcet by Louis Gottlieb & Soehne

Hi Guys, quite happy with the envelope re originality but I am trying to find out more about the maker...asked the question on the crosses forum but have not got an answer so far...so, does anyone know this maker and does anyone know what maker number this maker corresponds to? What cross should go into the pocket? There is a maker called Gottlieb & Wagner with maker number 52, which is very close to mine but is not the same...so my question is: Ist this the same maker as MM52 just with a different variation of the name or is it a completely different maker who maybe has family relations to MM52, but is not the same workshop? And if it is a different one then what would be his MM?

Hope someone might know?? Cheers, Torsten.

front of the packet --->
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Old 01-06-2007, 03:50 PM   #2
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back of the packet
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Old 01-06-2007, 03:51 PM   #3
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poorly focused... close up of the maker name...
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Old 01-06-2007, 04:49 PM   #4
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Can you post a bigger scan of the name?

Allan
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:09 PM   #5
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Hi Torsten,

The makers name is: "Louis Gottlieb & Söhne Idar Oberstein"

This is NOT the same maker as #52 " Gottlieb & Wagner Idar Oberstein" and also not the (unknown) maker "Gottlieb Roll & Söhne Oberstein am Nahe".

At the moment there are 7 unknown makers on EKII packet (maybe they are also on other packets that I don't know of). I hope that I can give you more information in the months to come. As soon as I have more information, I will place it on the forum.

There are also 12 unknown Präsidialkanzlei Lieferant Numbers, maybe we can fill some holes one day.

For now I'm afraid that there is not any more information on this maker (If there is please let me know )

Cheers, Thomas

ps. This maker is only found on this EKII packet. Meaning that this maker is not found on an EKII packet with a different lettering or EKII designation.
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:15 PM   #6
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it kept crashing everytime I tried to add the image to my third post...now I am trying it with a new post...here is the close up...Cheers, Torsten.
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas H View Post

ps. This maker is only found on this EKII packet. Meaning that this maker is not found on an EKII packet with a different lettering or EKII designation.
Hi Thomas, thank you very much for the info... I did think that they are probably quite different makers...with having the same surname in the same little town, I would have thought that the Gottlieb makers must have been related somehow...but anyhow...the packet did come with an EK2 inside it...but that EK2 is MM'd 138 on the ring which is of course a different maker and so, I assume that the packet and the EK were married at some point in the past??....Cheers, Torsten.
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:32 PM   #8
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Your welcome Torsten.

Thank you for the information about the MM on the EKII itself

This is the second time that someone has a packet by "Louis Gottlieb & Söhne Idar Oberstein" and a #138 marked cross to go with it. Maker #138 is "Julius Maurer Oberstein, there is that town again! . Could be sometime to look into. May I ask if you bought is from a dealer/forum member/family of soldier or ???

Greetings, Thomas
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:54 PM   #9
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Good work Thomas!
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Old 01-06-2007, 06:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas H View Post
Your welcome Torsten.

Thank you for the information about the MM on the EKII itself

This is the second time that someone has a packet by "Louis Gottlieb & Söhne Idar Oberstein" and a #138 marked cross to go with it. Maker #138 is "Julius Maurer Oberstein, there is that town again! . Could be sometime to look into. May I ask if you bought is from a dealer/forum member/family of soldier or ???

Greetings, Thomas
Hi Thomas, this is the second time? Do you recall who else had one? If it had come for the soldier or family then I would have been fairly happy that the two belonged together and that the maker on the envelope possibly only made the envelope and sold them to mm 138, but I bought it from a dealer, a book dealer, and this was the only medal she had and nothing else...she is not a medal dealer at all and this is the way that she would have got the medal along with a consignment of books and so, it would not have been put together by the dealer I bought it from. More questions then:

Are you aware of any EK2 envelopes with Julius Maurer marked as the maker on them?

Are you aware of any other MM's EK2's that came with these envelopes?

Are you aware of any mm 138 EK2's that came in other envelopes than these?

Lots of questions of course, but I think that we would get much closer to solving this mystery if we anyone out there would have some others to any of these questions....

Cheers, Torsten.
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torstenbel View Post
Hi Thomas, this is the second time? Do you recall who else had one?
I looked further into this one today and found more people with this packet and a #138 marked cross. Total is now 6, 6 is better then 2. I found these other 4 example on other forums. I don't know where they got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torstenbel View Post
Are you aware of any EK2 envelopes with Julius Maurer marked as the maker on them?
Yes I'm aware of maker marked packets by Julius Maurer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torstenbel View Post
Are you aware of any other MM's EK2's that came with these envelopes?
Shored answer: No

Quote:
Originally Posted by torstenbel View Post
Are you aware of any mm 138 EK2's that came in other envelopes than these?
No I'm not, but this could have happened. Why do I think this? Now knowing of 6 people who have a Louis Gottlieb packet and a #138 marked cross, makes me say that this is not a coincidence. I think that these packets and crosses got married during the war. Gottlieb Roll & Söhne Oberstein am Nahe, one of the other unknown akers found on EKII packets, could also have had #138 marked crosses in his packet.

The question: how got a #138 in a Louis Gottlieb packet?

Lets say Louis Gottlieb got a small order from the Plz or Ldo or ???, to provide EKII's. Why the order: end '44/begin '45, Germany is losing the war and to keep the soldiers motivated they award more EKII's. Now there are short on EKII's so they ask more companies to make them. Let also say that Louis Gottlieb normally make dagger parts or IAB's. Setting up production for EK's would be impossible (to expensive, no workers for this kind of job). Selling no to the one that placed to order is als impossible or just not an option.
So you accept the order and place another order by someone in your town to sell you EK's. This company is Julius Maurer, which already has the tools to make them and has enough capacity to produce more EKII's. Julius Maurer isn't one of the big EK manufacturers.
Now Louis Gottlieb only has to get some packets with his name to go with the crosses. Getting these packets isn't as difficult as making the EK itself.
Now Louis Gottlieb is providing EKII's #138 with a packet that carries his name.

I don't say that this is the real story, but it could be something like this.

Cheers, Thomas
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Pilch View Post
Good work Thomas!
Thanks Allan,

I'm doing what I can

Cheers, Thomas
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas H View Post
Lets say Louis Gottlieb got a small order from the Plz or Ldo or ???, to provide EKII's. Why the order: end '44/begin '45, Germany is losing the war and to keep the soldiers motivated they award more EKII's. Now there are short on EKII's so they ask more companies to make them. Let also say that Louis Gottlieb normally make dagger parts or IAB's. Setting up production for EK's would be impossible (to expensive, no workers for this kind of job). Selling no to the one that placed to order is als impossible or just not an option.
So you accept the order and place another order by someone in your town to sell you EK's. This company is Julius Maurer, which already has the tools to make them and has enough capacity to produce more EKII's. Julius Maurer isn't one of the big EK manufacturers.
Now Louis Gottlieb only has to get some packets with his name to go with the crosses. Getting these packets isn't as difficult as making the EK itself.
Now Louis Gottlieb is providing EKII's #138 with a packet that carries his name.

I don't say that this is the real story, but it could be something like this.

Cheers, Thomas
Hi Thomas, I agree with this or something similar being the most likely explanation behind this mix...since there are a total of six different people now known to have got the same combination package and cross, then I would think they must have been originally issued like this by someone. I was actually going to spit the package from the cross as I thought that they obviously do not go together...but good thing I asked the question first...now I am not going to split it.... Cheers, Torsten.
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Old 01-07-2007, 07:01 AM   #14
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Hi Torsten,

I'm glad that I could help to put a stop to this deforce

I hope that they stay together for many more years.

When I have more information, I will let you know.

Cheers, Thomas
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Old 01-07-2007, 07:15 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas H View Post
Hi Torsten,

I'm glad that I could help to put a stop to this deforce

I hope that they stay together for many more years.

When I have more information, I will let you know.

Cheers, Thomas
Hi Thomas, yes you certainly have stopped me from taking apart what Gottlieb put together... I would never split lots or items that belong together...but like I said, I thought that these two were obviously put together by someone other than the original manufacturer and so there would have been no point in my mind to keep them together...but I am happy to do so now and will keep a record of this thread... Tot ziens en bedankt, Torsten.
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