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Carl Forster & Graf "The whole story" Part 1
Old 05-15-2006, 10:04 AM   #1
Thomas H
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Default Carl Forster & Graf "The whole story" Part 1

Hi Friends,

I knew that the title of this thread would catch your attention.

In the past members of this forum have asked about "Carl Forster & Graf, Schwäbisch Gmünd". All sorts of question where asked, like "Is this packet genuine or fake", "Why are all these packets in mint condition", "Did they also produce EKII's", "Why do some packets have a Ldo warrant on the back".....etc

I know that there are already a lot of threads about these packets, so why start another thread? Well I think that I have some new information.

I have read all or most of all threads about these EKII packets. I will use some information provided in these threads by Marcus Hatton.

Maybe I go to far in my distribution of information, but I hope to tell the whole story as we (or I) know at this point in time. I'm certain that there will be more on this maker and his EKII packets in the future.

The city Schwäbisch Gmünd:

The processing of gold and silver has a long time tradition in Schwäbisch Gmünd. The year 1372 is already mentioned in documentary as the year when the first Gmünder goldsmith started in the city. Today there are over 50 gold and silver smiths in Schwäbisch Gmünd, and over 20 manufacturers and factories. The company "Carl Forster & Graf doesn't exist anymore nowadays

Schwäbisch Gmünd is a city in the east of Baden-Württemberg, about 50km east of Stuttgart. It is after the district town Aalen the second largest city of the Ostalbkreises. For the surrounding cities Schwäbisch Gmünd forms a central center

The Story behind the "Hoard":

I know the man who sold these packets by the hundred. This is what he told me about the packet. I know this man only by email.

He bought approx. 3000 packets directly of a household dissolver. The man he bought it from got it from the close downed factory in Schwäbisch Gmünd. He probably wasn't the first that bought these packets, but he bought all packets that were left at that time. 85% of the packets where without the Ldo warranty.

He also said that he sold almost all of the packets without Ldo to well known dealers and kept the packets with Ldo warranty.

Forum member Skip told me in Stuttgart that he saw these packets on a show in stacks of 50s, with banderoles, none of them had the Ldo warranty on the back. Skip saw about 500 of these at one go. The seller cut the banderoles and Skip saw a well know dealer bying a lot of there packets. Skip's story confirms the story of the man I know and we all know that dealers sell these packets.

The packets:

We all know that there are two known sorts, one with and one without the Ldo warranty. I have three different "Carl forster & Graf" packets. I will start with the packet with the Ldo warranty and then go on to the two different packets that I have without the Ldo warranty.



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Last edited by Thomas H; 05-15-2006 at 11:25 AM.
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Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet with Ldo warranty
Old 05-15-2006, 10:19 AM   #2
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Default Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet with Ldo warranty

Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet with Ldo warranty:

The packets Ldo warranty is exactly the same as the genuine cellophane packets. With this actual packet when angled towards the light a difference in 'ink' can be seen visualy, with the maker mark and designation.

A theory of Marcus is, that the Ldo warranty was later edit to the packet when, we don't know. This is one of the question that maybe could be answers when a ink test is done on these packets.

there are differenses between the packet with and without Ldo warranty, I will point these out later.
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Old 05-15-2006, 10:23 AM   #3
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I have only one packet with Ldo warranty, but I believe that some of these warranties are a little more vague then the on I show
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Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet
Old 05-15-2006, 10:32 AM   #4
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Default Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet

Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet:

The packet without the Ldo warranty, like the one with warranty they both packets look like the EKII packets we all say are genuine. I'm talking about the designation, Lettering and also the type/grade of paper used in other packets confirms the some properties known from other packets. I know that this doens't make the genuine, it still can be a very very good fake.
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Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet 2
Old 05-15-2006, 10:39 AM   #5
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Default Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet 2

Carl Forster & Graf EKII packet 2:

This is a very interesting Carl Forster & Graf packet. The packet isn't mint/unused like the packet we know of this maker. The packet isn't fooled with (mint packet made looking old in the last years) This packet looks like a normal genuine packet like any other genuine EKII packet.

Between the two mint packets I can't really find anything different in the Lettering, except for the fact that the lettering on the packet without Ldo looks thinker/more fat.

The lettering on this packet is different compared with the mint packets. So it's not from the some print.
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Old 05-15-2006, 10:56 AM   #6
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I will now compare the three packets. The Ldo on top, the used packet at the bottom.

There are some small differenses in the designation, I will one point out some of them, these differents are marked red.

- The SS in Klasse: first S is higher on the first two packets
- the E in Kreuz: look sad on the first two packets and happy in the last one.
- The A in Klasse: maybe not good visible on these some pics, but the A is more round in the last packet. The first two have V shape where the L comes in.
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Old 05-15-2006, 11:03 AM   #7
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Maker marks on the back.

You can see the differents between packet 1 and 2, 2 and 3 with your eyes closed. the small differenses between packet 1 and 3 are marked red.
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Summery
Old 05-15-2006, 11:18 AM   #8
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Default Summery

What do we know about the company Carl Forster & Graf.

- We know the company isn't there anymore.
- We know they had the RZM code of M9/154
- We know now that not all packets are mint and from the same print.

the packet with the fat maker mark is not always fat. I have seen this packet without Ldo, but with small printing. Is this one from another print or one of the first packets printed when there was a lot onf ink on the stamp?

- they made tinnies and Mothers Crosses
- We know that there are other companies that made packets for EKII's, but aren't known for making EKII's, for example "wilh Hammesfehr".
- We know that there was one company producing EKII's in Schwäbisch Gmünd, maker #16 Alois Rettenmaier.


I think that this is all I can say for now. Maybe you are wondering about Part 2. If there will be a Part 2, that would give the outcome of the ink test and maybe other information that someone can find.

My personal thoughts:

I think that all three packets shown in this thread are produced pre end of the war. When the Ldo warranty was edit, Pre or post '45, I don't know.

The members that don't like the unused packets and think that the are bad, They can't (in my opinion) say anything bad about the used packet in this thread. If members think that that packet is also fake, they think all packets are fake.


If you have anything to add, please do. If I find more on this maker I let you know. Thanks for taking time and reading this thread.

All the best and happy collecting to you all,

Thomas

Last edited by Thomas H; 05-15-2006 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:16 PM   #9
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Well done thomas, very interesting
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Old 05-16-2006, 10:03 AM   #10
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Hi Thomas,


Thank you very much for this thread and your thoughts further to this deliberation legacy.



In my opinion all three packets come from the same source and tools.


In post 7; 1,2 and 3 very likely were produced from the same tooling, look at the corners of the rectangular box for one comparision and definition of the lines both. Here we can see shadow traits to associate the three together within reason.

I would summise that they are from the one in the same tooling and it's not unreasobnable to assume 'factory', machine etc etc and the differences quite normal to observe in printing i.e the definition differences and gauge of the numerals and letters. The E's and S's I wouldn't pay to much heed to these accountable differences in printing Thomas.

That is to say there is no discerning size or letter change (gauge) within the examples that cannot be attributed. As noted before though we do get a smaller version of this designation, there are other same size examples of these desigantion of course on numerous other packets of different makers, but for now we are dealing with this packet.



As for no.3 is this the packet that Aktinium had, I think this was a married packet to an award (?) and was produced on the forum post the discovery of the 'hoard' of these packets, I'm not conversant with the story behind this one and where it came from now etc but will add this:

It is possible that the packet is from the same overall batch as the others (?), there were many in states of varying condition as I understand, it could have been 'worn up' perhaps by a previous seller/owner before Stefan obtained it......I don't know, but lets look at as many angles as we can for and against to be objective.



Again with the differences in desigantion Thomas I'm afraid these differences are again quite normal to encounter and wouldn't really read anything into minor differences we can estimate perhaps one is older than the other......but this is to a thin line of thought with several thousand prodcued packets of one type and the numerous differences acceptable within such a number.

Given the differences you show, I would declare that they are no more than expected differences in a large run of printing with considerations of the printing process and the before mentioned tooling.

Last edited by MH184; 05-16-2006 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:11 PM   #11
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Border frame: from the top, 1 and 2 certainly have traits, pic 3 I think is of the same sorts, now the origin's of this one would be interesting for the record form the 'horses mouth' mouth as they say.
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:25 PM   #12
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Now then Thomas, are you up for some serious research with old Marcus

E mail time, I have some ideas - regardless of ink and age testing, you can have a part 2 and part 3.
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:32 PM   #13
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Great thread!! I enjoyed the reading!!!
Any dealers selling them right now??
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:39 PM   #14
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Yes your main German dealers.
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Dealers!!!
Old 05-16-2006, 12:56 PM   #15
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Default Dealers!!!

I just checked the following and they aren't selling them!!

german-historica.de
Detlev Niemann
Helmut Weitze
Ebay
militariasales.com
warrelics.com

Any specifics would be a big help!!
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