Now I have my personal proof - Yes, tnics are being restored in Germany

[markus]

Surely all remember the discussions giong on a couple of months ago about W-SS tunics being faked or at least restored with insignia.

I called a good friend of mine in Germany yesterday who used to collect and from whom I remembered that he had told me about 6-7 years ago that a shop in Northern Germany had once offered him to restore his Grandpa's WH-tunic. - Now 6-7 years later and more interested in tunics I wanted to know more details.

My friend told me that he entered the shop with his Grandfather's WH-NCO tunic stripped of all insignias and a photo where the tunic was visible with all its original insignias applied. On basis of the photo he only wanted to buy the insignia to reapply to them to the tunic, when the owner of the shop personally told him that he knew a person who could put the insignias incl. NCO Tresse back on using original thread(!)

My friend did not accept the offer back then, since the price of approx DEM 100 for the job was too high bach then as a student.

For me personally it was the last proof I needed to orientate myself in the hobby.

Traders reading this thread right now will probably laugh about my "super" discorver, since the restauration of tunics is so obvious and a must from a sales point of view, but I think there are still a number of unaware collector out there who should no.
At the end everbody must decide for himself whether he can live with an "LAH" tunic which in reality was a tunic from the "Handschar" or the super rare Pz. wrapper from "Feldherrenhalle" which the 1940s was nothing more than an ordinary Pz. wrapper.

The thing is: If the restauration is professionaly done with period thread and materials, then the differences can not be identified.

Who can tell an originally applied Tank Destruction Strip apart from one that was put on 15 years ago??

The only thing I wonder, and maybe someone can help me out here, how do they close the sewing holes which stem from the originally applied insignia??

It is funny that in recent months some traders have more tunics on their websites whcih come without their insignias...
Probably our traders have become better, more honest people... in general I think this world is becoming a better place to live in by the day

[B. N. Singer]

Good evening,

Your question addresses, what is in my view, the "true art" of collecting WW II German uniforms. That is, determining if a jacket is 100%, untouched original.

Something that a forum does not lend itself well to and that cannot be gained without having examined many items over many years.

For me, the collecting of uniforms has always been and is even more today a practice in "Sherlockian (Sherlock Holmes) sleuthing" or "forensics" if you will.

Personally, it is what I have found to provide the greatest enjoyment over my collecting career.

B. N. Singer

[John Pic]

Markus did you read my post on another forum. I recently bought a completely "restored" tunic unknowingly thinking it would be ok since it came from a respected dealer. Personally I dont mind some restoration as long as all parts are original and the tunic was SS to begin with. This one came with east German pips applied to the tabs. The dealer after I sent it back did agree about the adding of the fake pips and a cufftitle and gave me a full refund. But I dont know what I was thinking buying it... my brain just failed me I guess and I have been trying very hard for a nice worn standard gabardine officers tunic for years without being able to score exactly what I want.

I would be very careful of any tunics coming from Europe nearly every one I have held or familiarized myself with has a questionable point that causes inner doubt . For some its easy to live with little flaws but for me it causes anxiety.I am collecting Heer and Badges right now. The SS has become too saturated with revamped tunics and cloth items.

To answer your question about stitching holes I never can find them on material with good nap but I take a blacklight into pitch dark and can find faint shadows of eagles some so faint you only see them at angles. Sometimes material will feel bumpy in the area of a patch gone especially rough wool. I found an oval ghost patch that way on one tunic sleeve couldnt see it but it was there.

[Robin Lumsden]

My experience is that 99.9% of SS combat tunics on the market today (not just in Europe - this applies to the US as well) are restored, and not always with original badges.

The nearest most of us will get to an 'authentic' SS combat tunic is to 'restore' and army tunic with original SS insignia. The purists will balk at this, but it is a fact. It can take years, literally, to seek out and obtain the correct badges to do this successfully. They have to have 'wear' commensurate with the 'wear' on the tunic, be the right pattern for the tunic, the right formation insignia, etc. etc. if the job is to be done properly. But at the end of the day the result is an original tunic with original SS badges, which is better than most of the 'restored' stuff on the dealer market. The point about the East German pips is pertinent, and demonstrates that some of the dealers are not too fussy about the 'restoration' of the tunics they offer.

[John Pic]

and really a good restoration is not a problem if the price fits the items history...but selling something restored at top dollar or even at an amount far exceeding the value of insignias and tunic is just wrong IMHO. Id pay good for a nice restored tunic but knowing what Im buying and not getting soaked. I dont know what percentage are restored or out right made up but I think more than due caution is needed.

[Donald Abenheim]

Might I interject that the restoration or amendment of regalia in Germany has likely operated since the 1950s, if not earlier. More troubling looms the phenomenon of wholly made up uniforms which nearly approximate originals. That is, SS uniforms that are tailored somewhere in Europe or Asia and are 99.5% identical to originals. These garments go beyond the Janke standard. Some of these have authentic insignia, as well. I do not wish to add to the general paranoia and dysfunctional habits of analysis and decision making. As my Oregonian colleague points out, if a piece is embellished or amended, then the seller should admit same in the price. In fact, I have always collected black uniforms simply because the pit falls of the grey uniforms were so daunting even in the late-1960s and early-1970s, when the fakes were no where near as cunning and skilled as they are today. The sum of this analysis requires more education, greater empirical skills, the sensible use of collective analysis, and common sense. Sapere aude and viel Sammlerglueck.

[Bob Coleman]

Donald is quite correct in his statements. With regards to closing original thread holes, I must ask what determines if a tunic is that way from the period or altered later. We must remember that soldiers got promoted, wore out and damaged insignia. This would require period alterations. Extra holes therefore annot be conisdered a true validation or rejection point. The best guarantee is valid provenance of an item. The new garments look new. They can be soiled and abused to make an attempt for aging. However, I would suggest one study the texture and colors of 60+ year old uniforms and one will notice the natural wear and fading that has occured from exposure to the enviroment.
Bob

[Gene]

Don't forget also that many SS uniforms (as well as others) were butchered for their insignia in the 50's and 60's as that was the collecting rage at the time(s). Whatever happened to those stripped tunics?

[hochiminhtrail]

Like Robin sayed, it s almost impossible to come to an untouched SS tunic, even the normal Wehrmacht EM tunics have been restored at one piont.

The only once that you can find untouched are the parade Army parade uniforms, and officers dress tunics. Most of those hung at home while soldiers and officers served at the front line. So there is a god chance to find some of those, but for combat tunics it s very rare, there is allways something that has been added or replaced.

Alex

[Bob Hritz]

I think there is a slight misconception over the availability of original wartime tunics.

No one will argue that there are many post-war assembled SS, heer, and Luft tunics in circulation, and in collections. However, there are also many original tunics, but most are well entrenched in collections. These tunics are traded by word of mouth and rarely need to be sold, on the open market.

With more aggressive dealers, willing to pay top prices, original tunics may well appear on dealers sites.

I once thought I would never have an original Waffen-SS tunic. Now I have a few of them. Most were gotten from other collectors who had sold or traded them to buy something of greater importance for their collections, and one, from a dealer.

Many collectors are leery of SS tunics, and rightly so. However, don't think that cloth badges and cuff titles are not added to luftwaffe tunics, GD cyphers and cuff titles to Heer tunics and, of course, the addition of pips to the shoulder boards of Heer tunics. I recall a collector, many years ago, who had no Heer officer tunics that were not Hauptmann or Oberst. He told me that the value, of the tunics, is substancially increased for the cost of a few pips.

I am not a serious collector of tunics, but when I finally got everything to Arizona, and opened boxes that had been packed away over a 30 year period, I found about 50 tunics, of different organizations and almost 100 helmets. I do not collect helmets, but just accumulated them over a lifetime.

There are many collectors, like myself, who have things tucked away. Over the next 2 decades, you will find many rare and wonderful things, on the market, as aging collectors see it is time to pass things along, before passing to the Great Void.

Please do not be so jaded that you give up hope before ever giving yourself the chance to be successful. Just be careful and check the item out as carefully as humanly possible.

Bob Hritz

[Bobwirtz]

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[Donald Abenheim]

Colleague Hritz makes highly valid and insightful observations. When he grows weary of any of these cumbersome and overly woolen black tunics, I shall stand in line with the others. Common sense and some cautious, but hopeful realism must outweigh the paranoia that goes with all of this and poisons minds and souls. Viel Sammlerglueck.

[John Pic]

I agree with all of you. Bob Coleman is absolutely correct when it comes to age and use of insignias and I think that a lesson here for me at least, is that internet buying without a hands on check is a gamble.

I also agree with Bob Hritz regarding availability, I know they are out there and will be surfacing my money is being put away for that day.However on occaision like when that beautiful Deumer FJ badge arose and or other things Ive wanted but put off to hunt an SS officer tunic, Im gonna invest a little there.Thanks Bob for your input. I hope when you gentlemen open it up or know of someone who is you will remember me, the Don Quioxte of SS officer tunics.

[nutmeg]

NYC costume shops had lots of German uniforms. I bought much of the contents of two in the 1970s and got several black and gray SS officers uniforms. These were stripped of insignia which they were always switching around for various stage productions (Diary of Anne Frank, etc) . After selling the uniforms, about a month later in another area of the costume shop I found all the original insignia they had stripped from them!

[prorege1]

I remember in the 1980s when you arrived unannounced at a particular Hamburg auction house prior to the auctions, then you could clearly hear the sound of sewing machines on heavy duty in the backrooms, when asked the explanation was they were "repairing uniforms and headgear" ..... hmmm