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View Poll Results: The "French-made" KM badges are...
...perfectly acceptable as official wartime originals (despite Präsidialkanzlei discouragement) 22 18.64%
...wartime production but unofficial and disallowed for distribution 15 12.71%
...a post-war invention, all are fakes 67 56.78%
...something I cannot make my mind up about either way 14 11.86%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2018, 06:54 PM   #196
Leroy
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"Recently several foreign companies from the occupied countries or from friendly abroad made applications for the distribution of German orders and medals and have approached German companies with the request to deliver German orders and medals, especially war badges. To this we remark:
In general it is unwanted that the marketing with German orders and medals is conducted by foreign companies. There cannot be recognized a requirement for it, since the owner of German decorations can secure replacements or sdditional pieces without any great effort from a company inside the Reich. The delivery of German orders, decorations or ribbons to foreingn companies hasto be omitted. In very special exceptional cases the statement of the Präsidialkanzlei has to be obtained up front."

The above is Dietrich's translation of the announcement from Dr. Doehle's office in the June, 1942, edition of UniformenMarkt.

Before leaving this thread behind, I wanted to make one observation: UniformenMarkt was a publication directed to German companies. It was also a vehicle for warnings against conduct that was officially frowned upon or outright forbidden, intended to alert German companies to things they should not engage in. Please note that this particular announcement talks about foreign companies making application (presumably to Dr. Doehle's office) to distribute German orders and medals ("especially war badges") but also (and perhaps more importantly) contacts being made by such foreign companies with German companies, requesting that the German companies facilitate this by delivering such things to the foreign companies. Nothing whatsoever is said about manufacture in foreign countries, nor, to my knowledge, has anyone ever shown any follow-up directive issued by any German occupation authority/representative in such foreign countries specifically banning manufacture of German orders and medals in such countries (although such a thing may exist).

The so-called 'original' "Bacqueville" (sic) badges I have seen (not the copies which appeared later) were of German badges authorized before June 1942. Nothing thereafter. Why not?

Just something to think about. I honestly cannot firmly decide now, based on what I have seen, whether they are wartime or not.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:57 PM   #197
Norm F
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Hi Gentry,

Yes, the observation has been made previously that the PK announcement deals with the marketing of German awards and not with their production. This is usually followed with the reasoning that if companies in occupied countries were forbidden to even sell German awards then it’s doubly unlikely they would be permitted to manufacture them. (Again, we are talking about only awards here, not insignia.)

This is then followed by those doing the math to point out that leaves a good two years prior to June, 1942 for French entrepreneurs to have tested the waters before regulations caught up with them. And that also provides the potential rationale for them to have been stashed away and never issued when they were not accepted by the authorities. After the war, one could imagine they would be just an embarrassing example of collusion with the Germans and remain socked away until time had attenuated the stigma.

All very logical and all purely theoretical.

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Old 05-17-2018, 09:45 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Hi Gentry,

Yes, the observation has been made previously that the PK announcement deals with the marketing of German awards and not with their production. This is usually followed with the reasoning that if companies in occupied countries were forbidden to even sell German awards then it’s doubly unlikely they would be permitted to manufacture them.
Norm, not really arguing with you. Just trying to clarify.

The problem, to me, is that nothing forbade foreign manufacture or sale in the announcement. German companies were simply given the clear message: Do not cooperate with foreigners by providing them with badges to sell.

Now it may certainly be (and probably is) logical that this would put the end to any manufacturing or sale by or in those countries or areas, and very likely they got the message there and that's exactly what happened, but the announcement was to German companies and called marketing "unwanted" and stated that there "was no requirement for it" as German companies could easily satisfy demand. There was, however, no direct ban on activity by foreigners, but instead merely a cut-off of any supply to them from German companies. I just think that fine distinction should be recognized.

Is it possible that some company in France, being unable to obtain pieces from Germany, thought (at least for some brief period) that it could "do it on its own", before throwing in the towel?

Just another unknown.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:00 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchVolunteer View Post
Hi,



The problem is that the pins of the French period badges don't look anything like the Fakeville badges... Can we move on ?
And that saying "Fakeville badges are different from German ones" is a very fallacious argument to imply that they may be period made.

Just ask old dealers around you. You will hear very very bad stories... People are starting to talk, people who sold and saw many scams.

See You

Vince
The problem is i don't know who do you call "old dealers" from Paris ? Franquez , Caravano , Optas , Hanot , Denis ... ?
Who did you talk to ? And who told you these badges were fakes ? With wich Proofs ?
I was on the market in the 70's myself : were you there ?
So everything you are talking about are "stories" actually ?
Exactly the same thing you use to dismiss these badges , as people were only using "stories" for trying to prove these badges could be "original" ?
Fallacious argument ? A fact in the story ! Different making !
I already said the pins are german style , certainly specially made to get a german Look , as they were not used for french badges , so not on the market at that time ...
Nick
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:59 AM   #200
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy View Post
Is it possible that some company in France, being unable to obtain pieces from Germany, thought (at least for some brief period) that it could "do it on its own", before throwing in the towel?

Just another unknown.
Yes indeed, we could add that nuance to our list of speculative theories.

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Old 05-18-2018, 09:27 AM   #201
Chris Boonzaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Yes indeed, we could add that nuance to our list of speculative theories.

Best regards,
—-Norm

I think our American friends should see an obvious Parallel....


Among the most sought after Vietnam stuff are the badges made, sold and worn in Vietnam, copies of official American badges.


Ditto for Afghanistan and Iraq.


When an occupation force is in place, the locals provide...


Unless the occupation force is German... then the stuff is confiscated and is not worn....
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