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Old 07-09-2015, 08:15 AM   #61
r_hufschmied
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My suspicion is that the items confiscated are just leverage, what they are really after is the art and more so the networks dealing with stolen Nazi art.

Klaus Dieter has/had the statue Die Wehrmacht in his garden, saying that it's just a copy. He has admitted to having had the Thorak horses as collateral for a loan, at a time when there was an ongoing search for them.

I don't know. Sometimes obsessive collectors go to far and justify their actions with the reasoning that they are protecting artifacts for posterity; but it doesn't hold up. Why not then return them to the state for a place where everyone and anyone can see them and study them?
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:57 AM   #62
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I know what you're saying, but the odds of Die Wehrmacht and Die Partei ending up anywhere but some obscure government warehouse under a tarp are pretty long...

Don
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Panther and horses
Old 07-09-2015, 10:14 AM   #63
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Default Panther and horses

Gentlemen,

are you really surprised ?

anything that people might admire or believe it's a

tremendous piece of art produced in the 3rd Reich

has to be destroyed as it might attract people that are

not really convinced by 'modern art' !

Maybe 'they' even removed the 'Panther' to make space

for some 'beggers' ... streaming in !!!!!!!!

Might go hand in hand with the removal of

the 'Confederate flag' in Charleston !!??

I have signed the petition but all we'll get is a closer observation !!!

.... not by NSA .... by 'BND' / 'Verfassungsschutz' !!!!

NSA is after terrorists ... the others after 'Nazis' !

'Denk' ich an Deutschland in der Nacht, bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht !!

Wolf
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:42 PM   #64
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Just a grab from this forum...
http://www.schnittberichte.com/schni....php?ID=353700

And I would say, some people can do things, some people can't !

Eric
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r_hufschmied View Post
My suspicion is that the items confiscated are just leverage, what they are really after is the art and more so the networks dealing with stolen Nazi art.

Klaus Dieter has/had the statue Die Wehrmacht in his garden, saying that it's just a copy. He has admitted to having had the Thorak horses as collateral for a loan, at a time when there was an ongoing search for them.

I don't know. Sometimes obsessive collectors go to far and justify their actions with the reasoning that they are protecting artifacts for posterity; but it doesn't hold up. Why not then return them to the state for a place where everyone and anyone can see them and study them?
You're probably right. This is probably punishment and leverage for not giving up the names of other hardcore collectors.

As for why not give them to a museum, probably because that does not guarantee anything. Just look at the armor at Aberdeen. Some of the rarest armored vehicles on the planet. And they are barely taken care of.

Art has less of a chance of being taken care of in Germany. Armor is kind of neutral. It is a tool. It can be displayed to represent either "good" Germans like Rommel or to represent the force of the "bad" germans.

Not so for the art commissioned by the nazi regime. It isn't neutral. It doesn't tell both sides of the story. It very much goes with the ideals of the nazi party. Many in politics would like to see it destroyed or hidden away. Either too ashamed of what it stands for in their country's history or that it might still hold some kind of magical power to convince young minds of wrong doing.
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:59 PM   #66
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All very true. I often wonder how many Germans (or anyone, really) today would even realize what those statues are unless they are specifically told...

Don
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:32 PM   #67
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Quote:
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All very true. I often wonder how many Germans (or anyone, really) today would even realize what those statues are unless they are specifically told...

Don
Propably 1 out of 100.

I visited last week at Wewelsburg Castle and the SS-museum next to it.It was very weird to me that taking pictures inside castle tower was prohibited.Museum was nice thou...
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Old 07-10-2015, 07:49 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by jiipee76 View Post
Propably 1 out of 100.

I visited last week at Wewelsburg Castle and the SS-museum next to it.It was very weird to me that taking pictures inside castle tower was prohibited.Museum was nice thou...
Did you also visit the Ottens Hof guesthouse (former SS Kameradschaftshaus) near the castle? It pretty much looks just like it did when Himmler visited, including some pretty surprising wood carvings, inside and out.

I don't know when they changed the photo policy ... when I was there in 2008 you could take photos in the crypt and the main tower hall, but when I was there last year it was prohibited.
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Old 07-10-2015, 08:14 AM   #69
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Did you also visit the Ottens Hof guesthouse (former SS Kameradschaftshaus) near the castle? It pretty much looks just like it did when Himmler visited, including some pretty surprising wood carvings, inside and out.

I don't know when they changed the photo policy ... when I was there in 2008 you could take photos in the crypt and the main tower hall, but when I was there last year it was prohibited.
Yes i visited Ottens Hof also.Very nice wood carvings inside there.RAD and SS related mostly.It was 1935-1937 used by RAD and later came to SS use.

There is also Niederhagen concentration camp memorial,SS memorial and quite many other in town area.

Wewelsburg castle Obergruppenfuhrersaal and lower vault with "eternal light" as well as Himmlers Wine Cellar was forbidden to fotograph.Inside museum it was ok to take fotos,but not with flashlight.Also they asked in the desk,where i and my friends come from...it was weird question...
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Old 07-10-2015, 03:29 PM   #70
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Another collector in another country - same but different...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...in-hitlers-bed
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Old 07-13-2015, 06:49 AM   #71
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Another collector in another country - same but different...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...in-hitlers-bed
Thanks for sharing I found the article fascinating . On the subject of the Panther I think the German government would be better focusing their efforts on a more telling threat to their national security than an old man who has the foresight and skills to restore and preserve their own technical history . Regards Bill
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:51 PM   #72
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Please sign the petition at change.org. The displayed despotism has nothing to do with our democratic state. Those methods were employed by former communist countries and countries alike. This act is a self serving left wing move of the local politicians.
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Old 07-20-2015, 07:19 PM   #73
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After speaking with people directly involved with this Panther - it is NOT demilitarized!

When it was brought over form the UK, he was ONLY allowed to do so, if he de-militarized to the BAFA standard upon arrival.

It was not.

He ignored the stipulation, and kept it in his garage.

To be honest, I do not blame him for doing so, as the BAFA standard is to cut a square hole into each side and drill three 75mm holes into the barrel.


He is a collector...not someone who is going to run up his Panther, load it with live ammo, and start tearing up the town...but it will never be returned to him. it is now property of the government, and most likely will be given to the Berlin museum or similar. Rather see it there, than have the gun deactivated, and holes cut into it.

I think some sort of standard should be allowed for people who are known as collectors. A permit specifically allowing them to have these items un-altered.
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Old 07-20-2015, 08:39 PM   #74
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I do not mind to demilitarize the barrel, but hopefully not the running gears.
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Old 07-21-2015, 03:49 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrison987 View Post
After speaking with people directly involved with this Panther - it is NOT demilitarized!

When it was brought over form the UK, he was ONLY allowed to do so, if he de-militarized to the BAFA standard upon arrival.

It was not.

He ignored the stipulation, and kept it in his garage.

To be honest, I do not blame him for doing so, as the BAFA standard is to cut a square hole into each side and drill three 75mm holes into the barrel.


He is a collector...not someone who is going to run up his Panther, load it with live ammo, and start tearing up the town...but it will never be returned to him. it is now property of the government, and most likely will be given to the Berlin museum or similar. Rather see it there, than have the gun deactivated, and holes cut into it.

I think some sort of standard should be allowed for people who are known as collectors. A permit specifically allowing them to have these items un-altered.
I do have a Collector's License that entitles me to posses non automatic weapons, till up to 20mm, in working condition, with the condition the were not to be used...but I haven't been able to buy any because the authorities decided to modify the regulations and now say I have to proove what day and in which historical event the weapons were used, and if I cant, they deny the weapon is historical... I asked an official at the "weapon office" if I could have a tank...and he replied I could, if it was deactivated as regulations state. 3 holes in the of same caliber of the weapon, bolt milled 45 degrees, extractor removed, barrel pinned to the housing with a steel pin 5mm thick...

Carles

Last edited by me6_130; 07-21-2015 at 03:54 AM.
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