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Old 01-27-2020, 06:55 AM   #46
Volksturmer
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Stan,
I agree - that tiny picture of the newspaper really needs an enlargement to see details and what it really is.

As for the zinc posted:
I thought about it - and just because it has fine details, there really is no way I can know if it is original to the period or not. We need more proof. I hadn’t noticed the symmetry.
More research ! First I’d like to find a larger picture of that newspaper. At least it shows the form of the announced award.
John

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Old 01-27-2020, 09:44 AM   #47
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:01 PM   #48
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............................
There is an excellent thread on the Dr Ing. Fritz Todt Preis over on GCA in which Matthew and I discuss at length what is right and what is wrong and I can tell you that the badges with the curved beaks were never even mentioned!

Stan

Stan, can you provide a link to that thread. I seem to have lost my GCA bookmark info.


This is a most interesting thread and I definitely have no dog in the fight. But I like the period documentation. Modern (1970-90s)"reference" books seem to be rehash of previous books. What was true for daggers then was true for medals. One fact I find interesting is that all period photo images show the medal name Dr. Fritz Todt as well as in the documentation of the award. But Todt's professional title was Dr.-Ing. Fritz Todt.

I tried to find some additional documentation in my library and located my copy of Klietmann's large volume of text from 1971 and volume of images from 1964. I know all are rolling their eyes with the name Klietmann. Not passing judgement, only providing additional context of modern info. I like the fact that he introduces measurements to the discussion. And he provides his documentation and other sources, both period and contemporary. (Littlejohn). And note he includes the Souval copies.
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:11 PM   #49
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Gary, I would always take what I read in Angolia's works with a large handful of salt.


His descriptions of materials in confusing and he has mislabeled the images posted, confusing the reverse of an example like yours posted after another unmarked example with front and rear shown. And he calls the "issue" number the manufacturer code. The later is probably a silver zink example as bubbling is evident. He does show an example of Stan's as a variant. But he also posted an image of a third variation which has openings where the left and right cog touch the bottom of the Dr. Fritz Todt banner. Has anyone seen an example of this one?
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:49 PM   #50
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And to really confuse the issue, here is an interesting treatise on Todt that features an image of the type of Stan's award, as well as images of all the pertinent period documentation regarding the creation of the award. This web page was used as a source in a Wiki article, if I remember correctly.

https://www.koblank.de/ideethek/d_goering-speer.pdf

And 'binging" the term of the award, I found at least a half dozen or more for sale.
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Old 01-27-2020, 06:47 PM   #51
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Gary,
I was told the picture was in the back -
You saved me 32 Euros if that picture isn’t in the 1945 Doehle reprint. I haven’t had a chance to order it yet. If Seite 92 isn’t in the back, that makes me want to skip buying it.

By the way, not only did I Not notice that the eagle in the ‘Seite 92’ Doehle picture was the kind I don’t like: the ‘chin-up’ or ‘proud’ type eagle, as I call them, because of the tilt of the beak upwards- I also failed to notice that the Seite 92 picture does not have the banner across saying Dr Ing -Fritz Todt- Preis.

I found this information interesting: originally in Italian. I’m not vouching for 100% accuracy- it’s from Italian Wikipedia (!) but with the many questions around this award, I think it’s worth reading. (My English and Spanish, and it’s cousin Italian, is better than my German).

“Hitler on 11 February established the German Order as the main personal, party and state decoration, and granted it to Todt post mortem. The following year - and precisely on “November 12, 1943 - Hitler created a special prize named after Fritz Todt (Dr.-Fritz-Todt-Preis), to honor people in the industrial field who had contributed significantly to the war effort.”

The decoration was conceived in three degrees, each accompanied by a cash prize:

Gold - 50000 Reichsmark
Silver - 30000 Reichsmark
Steel - 10000 Reichsmark


The degree depended on the significance of the inventions or developments or more generally of the contribution to the war effort put in place by the award-winning. Given the sums - which made it the second German civil prize with the award of money together with the decoration, after the German National Prize for Art and Science - it is to be believed that the "Dr. Fritz Todt" Award was considered the highest honor dedicated specifically to the work, higher than the Pioneer of Labour award.(Angolia)

The degree in gold was granted directly by Hitler, following simultaneous indication and approval of the technology department of the National Socialist Party and the commander of the German Labour Front (Deutsche Arbeitsfront, DAF), Robert Ley. The silver and steel grades were instead conferred by the Gauleiter of the Gau belonging of the decorated, following the simultaneous indication and approval of the Gauobmann (Chief of the Gau) of the DAF and the Gauamtsleiter (Commander of the Gau) of the Department National Socialist Party.

It was decided that the award should be awarded twice a year: September 4 - Todt's date of birth - and February 8 - the date of his death. The first gold class awards were presented directly by Ley on February 8, 1944.

The exact number of the decorated is unknown, but the gold class was certainly the preserve of a small number of people. The names known for the highest grade of the "Dr. Fritz Todt" Award are as follows.

Dipl.-Ing. August Coenders (inventor or developer of some new German weapons, such as the V3 supergun)
Dr. Karl Daeves (author of a series of studies on steel and chromium for war applications)
Dr. Walter Eichholz (inventor of a series of special ceramic applications)
Generalmajor Dr.-Ing. Uto Gallwitz (commander of the ballistics department of the Army's munitions office. Killed in battle on 31 March 1943, he was awarded postmortem on 8 February 1944)
Dr. -Ing. Georg G'llner (he worked in the field of telecommunications, developing new techniques)
Prof. Dr. Karl Kopfm's (electronic engineer, he developed the field of telecommunications, acoustics and electrotechnology)
Dr.-Ing. Franz Plzguter (metal scholar)
Dr. Ernst Ruska (physicist, 1986 won the Nobel Prize)”


On the occasion of the first award of the "Dr. Fritz Todt" Award (February 8, 1944), the Preußische Zeitung officially presented the decoration on the front page.
Volksturmer, I stand corrected, big time. Though I've owned my 1945 reprint for years, it had been years since I reviewed it. And yes, the picture of the Todt is in fact in the back of the book, so by all means buy that copy.

Sorry guys, for the bad info.
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Old 01-27-2020, 08:06 PM   #52
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Zeiges auction has Formans Todt award. It is marked 8244 over 57. Inside of pin marked 21.

Gary B
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:22 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Symonds View Post
Volksturmer, I stand corrected, big time. Though I've owned my 1945 reprint for years, it had been years since I reviewed it. And yes, the picture of the Todt is in fact in the back of the book, so by all means buy that copy.

Sorry guys, for the bad info.
Gary,
No worries! It happens.
Joe, thanks for posting that really nice link, and the other excellent information- it gives a lot to think over and consider.

If the Souval copies hadn’t muddied the waters, I would think it is indeed possible that there are 3 valid period variations or versions (Besides the private ones.) Even with the copies, it still may be true.
John

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Old 01-28-2020, 03:36 AM   #54
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Zeiges auction has Formans Todt award. It is marked 8244 over 57. Inside of pin marked 21.

Gary B
Thanks for the heads up on this one Gary.

I won't be placing a bid but nice to see all the same.

Stan
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:04 AM   #55
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Joe,

Here is the link to the discussion Matthew & I had over on GCA which unearthed a lot of information on these awards:

https://www.germancombatawards.com/t...tuser=0&page=1

What you will also see is that there were a total of 79 awards made on 8.2.44, 2 awards made on 2.3.44 and 5 awards on 5.3.44.

Further awards were obviously made on 4.9.44 but I currently don't know the exact number nor do I know how many awards were made between 5.3.44 and 4.9.44 (and after this date to 7.5.45).

I am compiling a list of known recipients and their grades but their award issue numbers are unknown.

Stan
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Old 02-09-2020, 06:11 PM   #56
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Gary,
What are the measurements of your Dr Fritz Todt Preis?
It would be interesting to know.
Are they similar to:
Height 65 mm
Width at the shoulder 41 mm
thickness 3.mm?

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Old 02-09-2020, 06:29 PM   #57
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Height 65 mm
Width at the shoulder 41 mm
thickness 3.mm
Steel is different with Swas raised higher than gold.
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Old 02-09-2020, 09:09 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volksturmer View Post
Gary,
What are the measurements of your Dr Fritz Todt Preis?
It would be interesting to know.
Are they similar to:
Height 65 mm
Width at the shoulder 41 mm
thickness 3.mm?
The same.

How about a picture of the reverse of the gold badge, with the needle in the up position in post 57, so that we can see the serial number?
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Old 02-10-2020, 01:26 PM   #59
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What I know for sure is that the Dr. Fritz Todt badges are made from zinc with horizontal lines on the back. The Dr. Ing. Fritz Todt badges in silver and gold are made from alloy with a polished swastika.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:50 PM   #60
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Gary, as requested:

Here is the reverse of the gold in post 57, pin up, good detail of the reverse.

Interesting that the font for the date, and the font for the number of the award are different.

Also: you can see that the date of the award, which would be the same on all of this type badge, was stamped pre-gilding. The award number was stamped After the gilding process, again, in a different font.

So, this indicates that the process for production was: the badge was produced, date stamped, and then finished in silver or gold- with the color steel being the starting point. This is the normal practice with production: start with the stamped base pattern, stamp the date, then add the silver or gold for the grade you are making. And then, you stamp the actual number of the award into the piece - post gilding.

This is nicely shown in this photo. It seems unlikely that fakers would use this process. They would just make the badge, stamp it with the date and number, and then silver or gild it. Also, it seems implausible that fakers would switch fonts on date and award number.
Only IMO.
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