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Cloth Headgear Forum Covers officer visor, overseas caps, field caps, and any cloth headgear.

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Old 07-12-2005, 11:58 AM   #46
John Hodgin
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NO JOS! This mark has totally consistent elements of the other good Berolina stamp. For one, CONSIDER the shape of the 9!!! I know of several other authentic variations of the Berolina stamp, including one unique to Berolina Meyer caps, BUT they ALL echo common elements to the accepted tropical stamp.

The ballpoint pen sized caps do not exhibit any of these common elements! And just to ask, where is the ballpoint marking in the stamp you just posted? Does the cap have an eyeless eagle? Why are the type fonts in the marking more like the accepted stamp and not the one Alexandre put in question? Is this cap mint unissued? Did a hundred like it surface at once? More?
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:03 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodgin
And just to ask, where is the ballpoint marking in the stamp you just posted? Does the cap have an eyeless eagle? Why are the type fonts in the marking more like the accepted stamp and not the one Alexandre put in question? Is this cap mint unissued? Did a hundred like it surface at once? More?

John,I really don't know..
Like I said a few pages back..,"why are there Auer standard O2 masks with totally different hoses and paintbags nobody has ever seen before..?...something we will never know IMO..
I never saw hoses like that before,2 halfs molded together,much thinner and shorter..,why would Auer make a hundred of these ?
Some hoses had a yellow stamp on them with only the year,very unusual..
With no provenance I'm pretty sure we would compare these hoses with all Auer masks we knew and consider these hoses as poor fakes..,no match..



Jos.

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Old 07-12-2005, 03:03 PM   #48
John Hodgin
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Hi Jos,

My concern are the fake caps with bad Berolina markings. I don't buy fakes, at least intentionally, so I have none to show here. If I make the Max this year I'll try to photo some of these bad caps and their marks, if any are there, and then email them to you. I think we have shown too many confirmed good Berolina stamps already, many others are published in books, and this is one reason they have been copied. I do not want to give the fakers a blueprint for improvement, and this thread is heading in that direction. Sometimes it is difficult to help others in so public a place without doing harm to the hobby at the same time.
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Old 07-12-2005, 08:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodgin
The main thing is finding variations in these odd marked caps. I think examples seen so far are TOO consistent.
There are 5 frontal shots of these caps shown that are identified as the penned size markings. From the 5 frontal shots there is a major inconsistency in construction amongst them. Look at the front seams that go under the eagle. Jos' caps in posts 15 and 19 are sewn with the front seam under the eagle being accomplished with the right piece being the top piece. Alexandre's cap in post 1, Jos' cap in post 18, and Willi's cap in post 47 are sewn using the left piece as the top piece. My unpictured cap of this style has the seam to the wearer's right.

This inconsistency in construction is consistent with the other caps in the thread that are accepted as proper Berolina caps: Post 49 - seam to the left; Post 65 - seam to the right.

That's a fairly MAJOR inconsistency in construction of these caps. I really find it hard to believe that a faker some 30 or so years ago would have gone to this extreme in production of a few hundred caps.

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Old 07-12-2005, 08:46 PM   #50
John Hodgin
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Another fine cap Gene. Note that it is an officer "upgrade." That is, the piping has been added post manufacture, hence the double row of stitching where the Berolina only has one row. Cool cap!

Jos, when did I ever say a "fantasy" stamp was used? I never said what Berolina stamp was copied. When I've photographed and post some of the markings in the reproductions, you will understand my concern.

"A few hundered caps" Jack. Indeed possible. In the late 1980s and early 1990s I saw superb reproduction jump smocks coming out of Germany, never in large numbers. Handmade, with real eagles, but bogus snaps and zippers and inked maker marks. I even posted a photo of a green step in here from this unknown German "craftsman." Funny, they seem to have disappeared, I haven't seen one of these repro smocks in fifteen years. Where are they? Still in collections me thinks. And Jack, no two smocks from this source were exactly alike.

AND you know what Jos and Jack, the collectors who bought these smocks insisted to me they were good with the same arguments you two just expressed over this style cap.

Last time, find me a worn example of one of these odd caps with solid provenance and I presume we all will sleep better. To date, there are hundreds of Berolina caps out there with provenance and ALL their stamps are more like those in Gene's caps, not like the one Alexandre posted. Using simple logic, until we find one of Alexandre's with provenance, this is NOT a positive sign.

But again, why argue with me? From the outset I said I liked the cap. I just have an issue the marking about which I ask valid questions, you answer these with only conjecture.

Ciao,
JH
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Old 07-12-2005, 08:54 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodgin
Note that it is an officer "upgrade." That is, the piping has been added post manufacture, hence the double row of stitching where the Berolina only has one row
The wear to the piping indicates it has been there for such a long time that I wouldn't be surprised if this was just the Polish manufacturing method, i.e. make the cap and then add the piping.
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:18 AM   #52
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This discussion is way out of my area of knowledge, but I thought I'd throw my cap into the arena..... so to speak..... any comments regarding originality ?

Cheers,
Steve
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:19 AM   #53
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:19 AM   #54
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:20 AM   #55
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:13 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene
The wear to the piping indicates it has been there for such a long time that I wouldn't be surprised if this was just the Polish manufacturing method, i.e. make the cap and then add the piping.
Gene, I am sure this is so, that the piping was put on soon after the cap was made. Never the less, if you have an EM cap by this maker, there will be only a single row of stitching at the fold, as with all other tropcial caps, by all makers. IMHO caps that were originally intended as officer's caps have only one row as well, regardless of maker, just as your Berolina. This construction was prescribed. Consider that all the Polish, Dutch, etc. makers of uniforms, made their uniforms exactly like the German firms, (no extra rows of stitching anywhere).

Steve, a handsome original Berolina. I LOVE the coarse lining, and have tropical shorts with pockets of this same material. This is a 42 dated Berolina tropical cap I'd sleep well with owning. Do you have any history of it?
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Old 07-13-2005, 09:36 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodgin

Steve, a handsome original Berolina. I LOVE the coarse lining, and have tropical shorts with pockets of this same material. This is a 42 dated Berolina tropical cap I'd sleep well with owning. Do you have any history of it?
Phew !!!!!
I was worried one of you tropical guys was going to say it was a bad one . No history John... I picked it up at a show just so I could say I owned one.
Perhaps you could PM me to explain just what it is in the markings you either like or don't like .

Thanks,
Steve
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Old 07-13-2005, 10:06 AM   #58
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Very nice overseas cap , no doubt for this one !
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Old 07-13-2005, 10:22 AM   #59
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"the principal key of the bad marking is the "9" of the date ( see at the bottom and compare with the good ones showed in the thread )"

True that the 9 is the most obvious, but there are subtle differences in the type fonts.
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:55 PM   #60
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Hope this doesn't anger readers of this thread, but I intentionally put a tiny bit of false information in here, looking for a challange, to see who was on their toes. To see who really, I mean REALLY studies the details. Only Gene passes the test.

Here is François' officer's cap. It was made by ALMI who produced super well made caps. Tropical officer's caps made by ALMI are extremely rare, and this is a very valuable and handsome cap. It is made of heavier twill than Berolinas and appears almost identical to the cap the RK winner is wearing on P.186 in the new Kurtz DAK book. It would not surprise me if that cap was an ALMI as well.
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