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Old 06-08-2019, 07:32 PM   #16
Texasuberalles
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It's a genuine item missing the spike on the helmet and lid on the stein in his uplifted hand.
Those are always the first to go to time and of little consequence.
It is a common unit and configuration but still a wonderful beginning place for these sort of items and is over 100 years old.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:23 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erwin View Post
Thanks guys for you wonderful response and just to answer a couple of questions. Firstly there is no makers mark anywhere, the underneath of the lid is quite bright & shiny. Regarding the hand painted buttons etc, yes there seems to be something there when I rub my fingers over it I can feel the raised dots, it is very fine but they are there. Also about the thumblift crest it appears to be just like the Baden helmet plate which I notice has faint traces of red on the shield.
Something else which no one has mentioned is that in one of the photos one can notice a flaw in the porcelain in that purple band around the base.
I'll talk nicely to Paul and see if he will post some more pics of the underneath of the lid etc. Is there anything else someone might want to see more closely?

Thanks again fellas I'm quite encouraged by the response.
Jack

I would like some better pics of the lid. I do not see a welding line. Copies of the lid are usually one piece constructions.
So far however, I have not seen any red lines that makes me think this Stein is a copy.
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Old 06-09-2019, 03:58 AM   #18
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100% original and scarce to a military baker, the personalised engraving to the lid is also a nice touch.

I have been an active collector of Regimental steins for many years, this is a no brainer original.

Last edited by nzef1940; 06-09-2019 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 06-09-2019, 04:42 AM   #19
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Thank you Texasuberalles and Mike for your positive confirmation and all the other posters as well. I'm intending to take a few more close up pics and Paul says he's happy to post them for me so watch this space.

Cheers Jack
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Old 06-09-2019, 05:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzef1940 View Post
100% original and scarce to a military baker, the personalised engraving to the lid is also a nice touch.

I have been an active collector of Regimental steins for many years, this is a no brainer original.
I am not so sure that he was a baker Mike.

more likely part of the unit assigned to defend and protect the bakers. He looks to be in the 3rd company of Regiment 122. This is a company of infantry soldiers. The motto "Long live the military bakery" is interesting. Does this refer to a role of protection rather than making bread ? It also raises the question, did each company have bakers or each battalion ?

Another interesting anomaly is a Baden thumb lift on Wurttemburg stein. Either the lid has been replaced post war which might explain the name "Karl" being on it, or it is something to do with the 1st Battalion of Infantry Regiment 122 coming from Heilbronn in north Baden. However, was it north Baden in 1912 ? A stein to the 4th Wurttemburg Infantry Regiment number 122 should have a Wurttemburg thumb lift.

Then we have the really odd-ball feature; on the front there are 2 shields. One shield above the year 1911 is the correct colours of the German Reich but the other shield above the year 1912 looks to be green and white, the colours of Saxony. Now this is very interesting because Heilbronn lost its status as an Imperial Free City when the troops of Duke Friedrich I of Württemberg arrived. The duke had conceded the left bank of the Rhine to France during the French Revolutionary Wars but had been compensated with areas on the right bank. This is how Heilbronn and other former Imperial Free Cities became part of Württemberg in 1803."

But Heilbronn did not border on to anything to do with Saxony so I am at a loss to explain why it has that Kingdom/ State shield on it ???

A very interesting but odd-ball Imperial German stein in more ways than one,

Chris

Last edited by 90th Light; 06-09-2019 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 06-09-2019, 05:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90th Light View Post
I am not so sure that he was a baker Mike.

more likely part of the unit assigned to defend and protect the bakers. He looks to be in the 3rd company of Regiment 122. This is a company of infantry soldiers. The motto "Cheers the military bakery" is interesting. It raises the question, did each company have bakers or each battalion ?

Another interesting anomaly is a Baden thumb lift on Wurttemburg stein. Either the lid has been replaced post war which might explain the name "Karl" being on it, or it is something to do with the 1st Battalion of Infantry Regiment 122 coming from Heilbronn in north Baden. However, was it north Baden in 1912 ? A stein to the 4th Wurttemburg Infantry Regiment number 122 should have a Wurttemburg thumb lift.

Then we have the really odd-ball feature; on the front there are 2 shields. One shield above the year 1911 is the correct colours of the German Reich but the other shield above the year 1912 looks to be green and white, the colours of Saxony. Now this is very interesting because Heilbronn lost its status as an Imperial Free City when the troops of Duke Friedrich I of Württemberg arrived. The duke had conceded the left bank of the Rhine to France during the French Revolutionary Wars but had been compensated with areas on the right bank. This is how Heilbronn and other former Imperial Free Cities became part of Württemberg in 1803."

But Heilbronn did not border on to anything to do with Saxony so I am at a loss to explain why it has that Kingdom/ State shield on it ???

A very interesting but odd-ball Imperial German stein in more ways than one,

Chris
Chris, you are spot on with the shields. Heilbronn though close to Baden was not part of Baden (Kingdom of Prussia) but of Wuerttemberg. That thumb lift makes on sense on this Stein. I find these two irregularities cause for caution.


Furthermore, I am used to seeing the names accompanied by ranks and listed horizontally not vertically. Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.
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Last edited by kaiserwilhelm2; 06-09-2019 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:15 AM   #22
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Here is one for you Chris.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:17 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
Chris, you are spot on with the shields. Heilbronn though close to Baden was not part of Baden (Kingdom of Prussia) but of Wuerttemberg. That thumb lift makes on sense on this Stein. I find these two irregularities cause for caution.


Furthermore, I am used to seeing the names accompanied by ranks and listed horizontally not vertically.
Thanks for your post adding to mine.

Yes, the names being horizontal is unusual. Also the number of names implies he was part of a small unit. My guess, this was the detachment of that company which protected a bakery unit ???

Not something that I have ever researched before, Imperial German Army bakers. However, it would appear that they were a separate units in their own right;

"The 1897 model horsedrawn field oven could bake 80 loafs of bread within 100 minutes (before this, it had to be fired two hours long). Twelve vehicles formed a tactical supply unit, a field bakery convoy. From 1914 both these mobile ovens and mobile field kitchens (better known as Gulaschkanonen) played an important role in supplying an ever growing imperial German army in the field." https://ww1photographs.wordpress.com...-field-bakery/

It raises the question why a soldier from the 3rd company of regiment 122 is anything to do with a bakery at all. Surely the Field Bakery column had its own solders like a munition column ???

4th Wurttemberg Regiment 122 was made up of 1st and 3rd Battalions from Heilbronn and the 2nd Battalion from Mergentheim. I can not find a connection with Saxony ???

It is a puzzling but interesting stein,

Chris
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:19 AM   #24
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:20 AM   #25
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Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:21 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzef1940 View Post
Here is one for you Chris.
Very, very nice

A hard to find one for sure.

Good score,

Chris
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:22 AM   #27
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Horizontal rosters do appear occasionally, normally with a small roster only, for whatever reason.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:24 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.
No suprises there, the stein is original, however you know best as an avid regimental stein collector.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by nzef1940 View Post
No suprises there, the stein is original, however you know best as an avid regimental stein collector.
As always you address all the factual points made with excellent and detailed counter arguments and never ever stress the fact that you are an accomplished Stein/Porcelain collector. I really respect that.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.
Yes you are right, I missed those points

This stein is now getting weird. However, I am wondering if he has been in more than one unit/ Battalion/ Regiment or was he a one year volunteer ???

In one unit from 1910 to 1911 then another unit from 1911 to 1912 ?

May be he was a baker in field bakery unit from 1910 to 1911 then an infantry soldier from 1911 to 1912 ? or the other way round ?

Was he in a Saxon unit at some stage ?

What a hotch-potch of interesting possibilities,

Chris
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